No Takebacks

Gah! No, Lee! Nooooo. Don't say those things, don't send her off with a good luck I hope you find him. OMG. You don't even know how you are totally and completely screwing yourself. STOP DOING THE RIGHT THING AND DO THE SMART THING!

*pets lee* Oh, Lee. You poor confused puppy.

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cherylad.livejournal.com

I know!!!!!!!!!!! Dammit Lee! Tell.her.how.you.feel. RFN.

*argh*

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thegreenkitty.livejournal.com

Oooh, what a great topic!! I love the scene you posted. Let me think on this one...there are so many angst/squee moments that are made of win, but I can't think of any right now. I think it's bedtime since the brain is officially fried.

YES, so much YES, to doing the right thing instead of the smart thing, please, Lee!

BTW, I've loved your DPPs! It is truly a blast driving the train but it is just as awesome getting surprise new topics each day. Thank you!

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First off, thank you for a fabulous week of Pilot!thinky-thoughts. *smushes Kara & Lee together*

When I first saw the series (seasons 1-3 in one week during the spring of 2008), I was so sure they were going to get together in YCGHA again. I thought the first few epi's were a tease - I mean, the frakkin' end of the world has got to be the best excuse ev-ah to start frakkin', only stopping to eat, sleep & kill cylons. After they started, I was sure that the war/ end of the world would be enough complications for any sort of relationship BUT THEY WOULD BE TOGETHER!!!! Since it didn't happen in 33 or Water or Bastille Day, Kara's pending death/ abandonment would have to make them both declare their (obvious) love. But no, just a bath....and crutches....and jogging...and hours & hours of angst.

Next obvious spot was "The Hand of God" - Lee's outta the box thinking should have been immediately rewarded upon landing with some time in Kara's "box" (crude, but hey, parallel construction). Instead we got a huge phallic cigar and champagne orgasms. Where's an empty dry stowage closet when you need one????

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There are a lot of fascinating moments of angst throughout the series.

1) "Scar" springs to mind as one of the most epic; I completely love them both in that episode. I love that Kara is torturing herself over once again failing to save someone she promised to protect. Her love for Sam was protective, especially at that stage ~ I've always thought their vibe was probably quite similar to the dynamics she used to have with Zak. If there were sibling elements to her rapport with Lee, I'd say there were maternal elements in her approach to Sam and Zak at various points, though in none of these cases do I think the vibes were icky. I love that Lee completely goes for it at first, you can see how much he wants this to happen (his priceless arched eyebrow expression is the most perfect very-surprised-except-actually-not-at-all emotional note). I love that he knows her well enough to sense that something is off, and that he cares enough about their relationship to stop the physical extravaganza when he feels like he's losing her emotionally. I've complained before that Lee is prone to settle and compromise too much in his romantic life, but Kara is the exception to that rule: he just wants so much from her that he can't be happy with a divided or partial version ~ he wants the whole package. For once in his life, he won't settle for less. I think it rings true that Kara can't give him what he wants at this moment, but I like their argument about it, and especially her apologetic, angry parting kiss (and his HANDS. With the...HANDS. Yeah.)

A lot of people highlight the toast scene at the end of this episode, and I acknowledge its coolness, but I'm about fifty times more in love with the little ready room scene where he asks if she's OK and she wordlessly pulls herself together for him. They are both so quietly beautiful in that scene ~ it's the gentlest angst they ever shared, and I think it really showed their quality, their unselfishness, their genuine mutual caring. It's amazing how seamlessly they got over the makeout-angsting, and how ready they were to keep reaching out to each other. It's lovely.

2) I find the memorial wall scene in "Islanded in a Stream of Stars" one of their most quietly compelling angsty scenes. I'm sure some people don't even view it as angst, but there is something so delicately restrained about the way he touches her - that little hesitation as he raises his hand, and that wry resignation on his face as he releases her - that sets a bittersweet tone. It's the only time he ever tells her that he has no expectations: I'm here, you're here, this is all that matters - he doesn't ask her for anything more. I feel like it's a surrender of old ways of thinking, but also of old hopes, and there is something sad about it in spite of its beauty. Up to that point Lee always demanded more of her, and himself, than anyone else. He's stopped asking, stopped expecting...he's at peace with her just as she is, he has what he needs, and it's like he finally knows that nothing about their relationship and what they feel for each other will ever change. That brings comfort, but also a certain resignation. Plus, I'm fairly sure that this scene constituted the last time they ever touched each other, which gets it automatic angst-points in my book :)

There's something about it that reminds me of a random quote from the movie "The Alamo," of all things:

"You know, if you live five more years, I think you just might turn out to be a great man."

"Maybe. But I think I'll have to settle for the man I am now."

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There are so many things here that I absolutely agree with. In Scar, I love Lee's ability to care about Kara more than himself, more than his wounded feelings about her kissing/ditching him. The Are You OK moment after her fight with Kat is incredibly sweet. He just needs to make sure she's ok. And that they're ok.

The rueful look he gives her in Islanded, like he wants to grab her and hold her and give everything to her just guts me. I also see it as incredibly sad and a bit angsty, too, although much of the angst for me had passed by that time. One of my favorite parts of that scene is when she turns back to the wall and almost sighs, smiling because Lee accepts her totally and completely the way she is - dead, alive, angel, cylon - whatever. I felt like that was her moment of peace and release. He said I love you and accept you no matter what. For me, that's her peace with it all. I adore Lee for that and for Kara letting it happen. Lovely scene. *sighs*

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I completely agree! I love those scenes, and I'm very proud of them both for the way they support each other, and I'm glad (but also a little sad) about the peaceful acceptance they reach by the end of their story. They've gotten to unconditional acceptance, which is pretty amazing :)

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Really excellent write-up on Scar. And I love the point you make about hoe Lee's not willing to settle romantically when it comes to Kara. He demands all or nothing-- and it scares the hell out of her.

Also, your take on Islanded as being a sad, angsty scene: Ouch. It hurts, but I see it. And through that interpretation-- the resignation, etc., you can see why some people view it as a goodbye. It is indeed beautiful and bittersweet.

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Thanks for your lovely comment, it's great to hear your thoughts. I don't think Lee *meant* his words as a goodbye in "Islanded," (his wonderful little smile and "I'll see you around, Kara Thrace" as he walks away definitely end the scene on a wistful, sweet note ~ there's still a sense of possibility). You could interpret the scene in many different ways, all equally meaningful, I think. But for me, since this did turn out to be their goodbye, I look at it and see elements in it that reflect a sense of peace and resolution that could be viewed, in hindsight, as an ending place. I think he was saying that he was all right with where they were, that he was perfectly content just to be alive with her, and that he had learned to set aside any other expectations ~ they'd be fine whether or not any of their possibilities ever came to be. And I think she was accepting of herself, believing in herself as she was, to an extent she never could before. In some ways, that's very hopeful, but in other ways, it's a kind of letting go.

I'm sorry to be always quoting random things, but there is a line from a fanfiction story in a totally unrelated fandom that I associate with this scene: "He forgot why it had ever mattered that he couldn't have her, couldn't actually hold her. The other ways that he had known her love had proved themselves so much more permanent than touch; and they were with him still." It's a kind of parting without parting, maybe...

Anyhow, I'm really done rambling now. Thanks so much for listening :)

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he had learned to set aside any other expectations ~ they'd be fine whether or not any of their possibilities ever came to be.

That was pretty much Lee's arc throughout S4, wasn't it? Despite the finale, I love the Lee we got to see afte Kara came back from death.

And I think she was accepting of herself, believing in herself as she was, to an extent she never could before. In some ways, that's very hopeful, but in other ways, it's a kind of letting go.

This is my interpretation, too. But the letting go part makes me so very sad.

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Ah girl, I am loving your ramblings, you put everything so beautifully. I just wanted to say that I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on Scar... Their near-frak moment gets me every time, because there's so much hung unsaid between the two during the whole interaction. And I couln't love more Lee there, how he doesn't let Kara use him for her self-destructive purposes and tries to make her talk instead. That's a trait I always loved about Lee... he doesn't allow Kara to keep up with her destructive patterns and always tries to confronts her instead, with more or less luck and skill --love how he brings out the dead guys issue here and also, of course, Kara's reaction, because I see it as her way to tell him he's made a point but she can't deal with it, not right then.

Also, I agree with the Sam/Zak maternal vibe. I always felt that Kara was really comfortable with those kind of guys --and relationships--, where she was the dominant one and had the control.

It's amazing how seamlessly they got over the makeout-angsting, and how ready they were to keep reaching out to each other.

Agree. I love how their friendship is their safe place, how no matter what happens between them on a romantic level, they are first and foremost friends. Also, the fact that they always forgave each other and kept on trying despite all the mess they usually made of things is absolutely enadearing and touching.

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"--love how he brings out the dead guys issue here and also, of course, Kara's reaction, because I see it as her way to tell him he's made a point but she can't deal with it, not right then."

I couldn't agree more ~ I had never thought of her reaction in quite that way before, but you're right, that's exactly what she was conveying.

"I love how their friendship is their safe place, how no matter what happens between them on a romantic level, they are first and foremost friends. Also, the fact that they always forgave each other and kept on trying "

Yes! This is what I love most about them. And in a way, it's wonderfully unexpected ~ neither one seems like a particularly forgiving person on the surface, but it turns out they both have fairly breath-taking depths of understanding inside them. They get over hurtful things with unusual grace. Yay them :)

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Mm, had a late-night thought. How did the series end with Baltar NEVER telling Lee that Kara called out his name when Baltar was with her? I really thought Baltar would 'fess up, 'specially when he said to Lee, "Must everything come down to your personal feelings about Kara Thrace?" Dayam straight...comme il faut... IT ABSO-FRAKKIN-LUTELY MUST !!!

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Gods, that would have been awesome! And I love that line. I love that BALTAR, frakking self-centered, obsessed with himself, self-oriented, self-loathing freak of a Baltar knew about Lee's obsession with Kara. Not Kara's Oh Lee moment where she lusts for him, but Lee's obsession with her. "Must everything come down to your personal feelings about that woman?" MOTHERFRAKKING YEAH. KARA THRACE OBSESSION FTW!

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We need a fic where Baltar finally tells Lee before the mission to rescue Hera what happened during Colonial Day! It's the least he could do, for a whole host of offenses from treason to outting Kara in front of everyone.

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cherylad.livejournal.com

I know!!!!!!!!!!!! I was waiting when Baltar asked him that for him to fess up. THAT would have been full circle, but, of course, RDM would have frakked that pooch in the finale anyway, so ... *sigh*

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Still...I would have loved that scene between the two of them in the dry stowage locker where Lee menaces Baltar (who steps back quite gingerly) if Gaius had told him. First, how awesome that the great Ladies Man Gaius Baltar had a woman fantasizing about another man while she was with him. Second, I always loathed that Gaius had this over Lee - that he had slept with Kara after cutting in on their dance, literally and figuratively. Third, Lee's asking Gaius to do something unselfish - well telling him would have been such an act. *hand waves Hera's rescue as unselfish of Baltar*

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Right from the lingering I-thought-you-were-dead handshake in the mini, I was roped in. I knew the series would be angsty as soon as the best she could say was just that it was good to be wrong. And the handshake just kinda' hangs there. Well, and the little thing she does with her tongue when he walks away...

Colonial Day was huge for my fangirlness, as evidenced in this shameless pimping of my first K/L story (http://dread-pirate.dreamwidth.org/3305.html). I remember scanning the crowd for them while Papadama & Roslyn talked, and fussing over Lee looking lost, all by himself in the crowd, when Kara moved on to Gaius. And the fights in Kobol's Last Gleaming... So many chances for them to say what they weren't saying! I always wondered how exactly Lee KNEW she'd slept with Baltar. In my head, Gaius said more off camera. He had to for Lee to take the drunken card game conversation for anything other that Baltar being turned down. If you watch it and try to hear it from Lee's perspective, Baltar sounds dumped, not frakked-with-another-man's-name-on-her-lips.

And, of course, Scar. I loved, at first, that Lee put on the brakes because Kara seemed off. The fact that he cared enough to stop things was an excellent starting point, but then she deflected with the no us business. I'll admit though that my favorite moment was the slap-kiss. I still don't know what that kiss was FOR in her mind. Apology for the slap, one for the road because shirtless Lee is not something you just walk away from, just an involuntary reaction from still being hot and bothered? I had forgotten how the rest of the episode puts them right back to "normal". *sigh*

I could ramble all day about my love of pilots and their near misses.

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one for the road because shirtless Lee is not something you just walk away from

motherfrakking yeah.

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I think the slap kiss was all about what he said about dead guys being right, but she just wasn't ready to confront it. The kiss was I think all about the way she really felt about him, she wouldn't let herself go there and talk about it, but she just couldn't resist reaching out one more time....

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*sigh* If only he'd gone after her. That called for a wallfrak in the ready room by the light of the looping Scar footage... Huh. Maybe that answers my what-to-write-next dilema... ;)

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You know, for me the kiss was the proof that her previous "there is no us" was a big fat lie ;)

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Innibis and I were talking about this the other day, and we concluded that..... THEY DON'T NEED NUTHIN TO KEEP THEM APART.

That's right, nuthin.

Why, you might ask? Because all the tension and drama and angst and distance they neeeded was right there. From the beginning. In the backstory. Stupid-ass-table-retcon flashbacks aside, think about the premise. You fall in love with your brother's finance-- or you finance's brother. You both love Zak, and until you met each other he was probably the biggest thing in your lives and then BOOM!-- all that changes once you lay eyes on each other. How do you deal with that? What do you do?

And then to top things off, Zak dies. He's frozen forever, a perfect corner of the triangle whose unimpeachable memory will frak with both of you for a long time indeed. How is anything ever ok after that?

My point is, we just both wish the writers would've really explored the psychology behind their backstory more. I think if they'd done it justice, they never would have had to worry about quadrangles or farfetched reasons to keep them apart. Just overcoming their history would take a long damn time.

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shah-of-blah.livejournal.com

I agree. They didn't need any external nonsense to give them tension/conflict/angst. It's actually something that really bothers me about Sacrifice...because geez, they had plenty of angst. Why did the writers have to throw in yet another wrench? There's no need to engineer tension when you already have tension.

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YES! A thousand times YES! I'm giving you the Papadama slow clap here-><-

And then to top things off, Zak dies. He's frozen forever, a perfect corner of the triangle whose unimpeachable memory will frak with both of you for a long time indeed. How is anything ever ok after that?

And herein lies the actual, not contrived drama! How can they ever move forward together when they can't get Zak's blessing, or apologize to him, or even just set Zak and Kara's relationship aside as finished. His death while they were together and engaged leaves it in a place you don't move on from easily. Especially with his brother!

I was raised on the NBC soap operas. Days, Another World, and later branching to new networks with GH. I loved the primetime soaps-- Dynasty, you fantastic trainwreck, you!-- so if anyone knows sibling-swapping angst, it's me. I've seen the I-can't-live-without-you-can't-do-this-to-your-brother's-memory story done eight ways to Sunday. And it really never gets old for me. Way to drop the ball, RDM!

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*speaks while hiding under desk*

I just never bought the whole too guilty to frak b/c Zak's dead. C'mon, everyone is dead. Yes, sadness and loss and pain, but for frak's sake the whole human race is hanging on by a thread and they're gonna give up the ONE TRUE LOVE? Talk it out pilots, talk it out.

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But to me, it wasn't about Zak being dead. It was about betraying him BEFORE he died. Emotionally, I mean, by having feelings for each other. Certainly not the table!frak retcon in Daybreak that I thought was beyond out of character for Lee, no matter how pidgeon-swatting drunk he was.

And you can come out from under the desk. I'm not opposed to differing opinions. I will keep my ninja-ness in check. :)

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Also, ONE TRUE LOVE is scary. How do you process that without how-do-I-live-without-you? They could be killed any day, so keeping each other at arms length is a way to protect themselves when they're already surrounded by death.

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*peeks out from desk*

Yes, but they did not have a relationship pre-mini. They did not cheat. They had feelings. Even if I do acknowledge the table!frak (which I generally discount), it's one thing to *almost* frak in a drunken state, but they never actually did (and you are right -- lee could never drink enough to let that happen). I just don't see enough insurmountable guilt that can't be overcome with some communication, expression of regret, and some "time to think about things"? Even with the table!frak in mind, I guess I don't really see how Lee forgave Kara for "killing" Zak and forgave his father for pressuring Zak, but somehow can't forgive himself for fifteen seconds of OOPS that really didn't even amount to anything?

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**points to what ninjamonkey said**

It's not about the present so much as what went down in the past. It all boils down to how they felt about each other when Zak was still around. Feeling attracted, wanting to act on it-- and then.... Zak's gone. And you're left with all the what if's and never could's. It's enough to make you crazy.

The writers didn't do nearly a good enough of job exploring this over the length of the series, but they did two things that set up the conundrum beautifully-- (1) the insanely charged and angsty first meeting in the brig (it was ALL about what they weren't saying), and (ii) the folded picture. GAH, it's just genius. Why the hell would Kara take the trouble to FOLD AWAY the part of her finace's brother so she didn't have to look at him? You don't fold random pictures of random people. That's something you do with exes, with bad breakups, with people you still have feelings for but don't want to deal with.

The folded picture. Says it all really. : )

Edited Date: 2010-04-11 05:25 pm (UTC)

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Why the hell would Kara take the trouble to FOLD AWAY the part of her finace's brother so she didn't have to look at him? You don't fold random pictures of random people. That's something you do with exes, with bad breakups, with people you still have feelings for but don't want to deal with.

I guess the folded picture would say it all for me if I thought that RDM had always planned for them to have some kind of secret history. Was that something he said sometime? In a podcast or outtake? I just have a hard time giving the table!frak so much credence that it rewrites the K/L relationship for the entire series.

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ecstaticdance.livejournal.com

For me, that folded picture is part of the reason that the table scene makes NO SENSE! Part of it. There were hints and suggestions throughout Season 1 that made it seem like Kara and Lee had rather a lot of history together. The existence of the picture (how the hell did that get taken if they never saw each other again between the dinner and the funeral, btw? Or did he supposedly see them "that weekend" and not again until the funeral? I can't recall), the comment about Kara not being able to keep her hands of "a certain Major", the tension and banter between them in the mini - "Did they kiss your ass to your satisfaction?" "This seems familiar." "Same old Lee.", etc. These two people knew each other, and knew each other well. Sure, you can get a sense of someone from a couple of meetings, but a lot of this was details that wouldn't come up in casual conversation, and neither of them were given to gossip.

Erm. That was rambly.

Anyways, I'm not sure that RDM every said anything specific about Lee/Kara's history before the finale, when he was trying to make his Art. At which point he said there was not a secret history. Maybe my issue is that I need to stop looking for information and puzzle pieces earlier in the show, because maybe that was never how the story was meant to be told. I just can't bring myself to believe that two full seasons of great, cohesive story telling (plus half of another one) were an accident.

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Maybe my issue is that I need to stop looking for information and puzzle pieces earlier in the show, because maybe that was never how the story was meant to be told.

Yeah, I can't go back and rewrite the whole thing to link everything to the table!frak - makes me crazy. There is such confusion and inconsistency, I'm not sure it's worth it. I think exploring it all in fic is so-o-o much more interesting than trying to figure out what the hell RDM was smokin'. :)

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how the hell did that get taken if they never saw each other again between the dinner and the funeral, btw?

I do believe they saw each other after the dinner, actually. My take is that after the mess that was the table thing, they both made a silent pact and never brought out the issue again, like it never happened. And afterwards they became friends. Of course, their attraction always was there, but I can picture both pushing it out of their conscious minds and burying it.

Edited Date: 2010-04-11 10:34 pm (UTC)

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See, and I'm one of those folks that completely (or to the extent I can) blocks out the table flashbacks because they are SO abrupt and out of character. But even without them, the theory still works for me. Just the way they play the relationship in the mini, the hesitatncy-- I mean, Lee comes back from the dead and Kara is bursting with joy but she will only allow herself to shake his hand??? Seriously???-- the forced restraint there always strongly implied to me that there was much more to their relationship. That there were feelings and baggage and longing and guilt and deep, deep pain. Else, why would you be so guarded against another person?

Tablefrack, schmablefrak. There was way more going on there than a brief drunken encounter. RDM just wrote his term paper the night before it was due.

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Well, while the Cylons allegedly had a plan the whole time, I'm pretty sure RDM didn't. I thought that the Lee/Kara/Zak backstory was intentional (at least as far as there were feelings from when Zak was alive), but I can't remember where I got that.

The picture implies a lot. She didn't cut the Lee part off, which is reasonable if you just want the part with you and your fiance in it. But she also couldn't just deal with him being in the picture as collateral scenery, so she tucked him under- there, but out of sight.

(I love the DPPs, even if I keep getting the hairy eyeball from Mr. Monkey when I start furiously typing on my phone. Qwerty keyboard FTW!)

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You know, maybe the Kara/Lee/Zak issue is one of the things that fascinates me the most about k/l... All the guilt and the wrongness attached to the fact that they betrayed Zak when he was still alive (and not necessarily in a physical way). How you are supposed to get over that? It's a shame that the writers never deal with it in a proper way --and threw us those flashbacks that were a big WTF (even though I don't completely dislike them).

And the folded pic? Totally agree. Why on Earth you keep hiden the face of your dead fiancé's brother? Gah.

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com

Yeah I remember being almost surprised when Kara said "Is it because of Zak" in Unfinished Business extended. Because they hadn't brought him up since YCGHA!!!

(This is an excellent topic, I'm sorry I'm so late to the party!)

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Kind of makes you wonder if Zak isn't more an issue for Kara when it comes to her and Lee than we often give him credit for. I mean, we all talk a lot about Kara's issues, about not wanting to commit, about not thinking she's worthy or that she won't be able to live up to Lee's expectations of her. But I think it's probably very telling that when Lee says he wasn't able to admit how he felt until then and her first thought is "because of Zak" -- people often try to understand other people's motives in light of their own. We often think someone does something for the reason we would do it, because that's most familiar and reasonable to us.

The Kara we see in the flashbacks with Zak doesn't seem to have the extent of baggage that she does once we meet her in the mini and beyond. Granted, we don't see very much of her, but she seems to be very comfortable with Zak - and hell, she's comfortable with Sam, too. But it's Lee she has a hard time with, and I wonder if maybe a lot of that has to do with what happened between them and how they felt about each other when Zak was around. And wasn't the table!frak Kara's suggestion? I mean, you grow up with a shitty family, a shitty home life, you get away and you meet this great guy who loves you and wants to be with you and wants you to meet his family and be a part of his life, and you... proposition his brother and almost cheat on Zak while he's still in the room. Bam. All those things your momma said about you being a cancer, about how bad you were may be true after all. And it's wrapped up in this moment with Lee. And we all know the attraction doesn't go away, and I think it's pretty safe to say they saw quite a bit of each other after that night, so those feelings (however denied and pushed down they may have been) were there again and again. I mean, just imagine the war of emotion that must have happened whenever Lee was coming to visit -- excitement to see him again, guilt over how much you WANT to see him again, guilt over the fact that you have a secret with Lee that Zak is not privy to, that would hurt Zak.

And then Zak dies, like punishment for her sins -- can't appreciate what you have, can't treat it the way you should and honor it the way you should, and the gods will take it from you. So how *do* you move on and commit yourself to Lee? No matter how much you want him, no matter how much you love him, you can't be an "us" with him. You betrayed the most important person in both your lives together, and he may be gone, but the memory of him certainly isn't gone for either of you. As much as I hate to say they're "stuck on that table," I think they may be stuck in their betrayal of Zak. Not just the table, but the instant attraction, the connection that they had over conversation that night, the attraction that surely continued whenever they saw each other. And I guess by "they" I maybe mean Kara more than Lee, because Lee seems willing to go there several times in the series, and Kara pulls back.

Annnnnd that was a bit of a ramble, but it's my extemporaneous thoughts on the Zak-guilt issue.

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com

Makes sense to me, bb. Kara's greatest strength is her loyalty to her people. I could never ever buy into that table frak flashback precisely because she propositions Lee like it's no big deal. I've read plenty of fic that I've loved where they are guilty and tortured and fall into bed (not the FIRST NIGHT THEY MEET granted) because they can't help themselves after they grow close as friends, but the idea that she basically dares him to fuck her on the table with Zak right there? No fucking way. It just doesn't ring true, nor does it ring true for Lee to go along with it just because they're both drunk.

I think though that if we were supposed to get the idea that they were stuck on their betrayal of Zak...well it would have made a hell of a lot more sense if we actually saw them being stuck on the Zak issue! After YCGHA he's never mentioned again until UB. So I never really thought that was the issue so much as their fear of how much they feel for each other. How big and all-consuming and different from other relationships it is. But I can see that being Kara's motive a bit more than Lee's with her added self-esteem issues that she's a cancer who fraks everything up. (Heh your comment made me want to go read Leda13's Fearful Symmetry again. So perfect that characterization of Kara.)

(And I think that was your longest comment ever!)

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I pretty much agree with both of you. I don’t like the near table!frak because it was too abrupt and contrived, almost pushing the boundaries of OOC, but I really like the notion of pilots betraying Zak (more in a non-physical way) while he is still alive, and that becoming the source of the inherent wrongness in their relationship and their inability to accept their feelings (can’t help myself, cheating/almost!cheating with your true love is a kink of mine!). And as twisted as it is, I also like the concept of true love (aka Lee) as both a blessing and a curse for Kara –she meets her soulmate and is aware of it right from the start, but that person becomes the confirmation of her mother’s curse at the same time. I can definitely see this as a part of Kara’s motivations to not allow herself to commit to Lee (the other big issue is the depth of her feelings for him and how much they scare the hell out of her, of course).

The problem with the whole table issue is that they almost frak the first night they met and frankly, that’s a little bit too much to buy, especially because the show barely mentions the Zak issue and its consequences, not until the very end, and that’s the reason why it doesn’t ring true at all and looks like a cheap retcon.

That being said, UBEX always made me think about Zak. First, Lee’s applecart line –how are we supposed to read it?-- and then that conversation between Sharon and Kara, when Kara tells Sharon that Lee is doing it all over again –that is, thinking (and acting) like she was his--, and Sharon says: “like when you were with Zak?” and Kara answers “Yes, and now I am with Sam”. Or something like that (I don’t remember well and I don’t have the transcripts here). I didn’t know what to make of that conversation, but I always found it intriguing.

Anyway, this is s fascinating topic indeed, I am planning to devote a DPP to Zak and pilots backstory if nobody brings out the issue before :D

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I think the only think the table!frak itself accomplishes is showing how incredibly strong the attraction was for both of them right from the start, and putting them both in a position of being very aware of that attraction and how dangerous it is to their respective relationships with Zak. Neither one of them was ever stuck in the "I'm attracted to my brother's/fiance's fiancee/brother, I wonder if he feels the same" situation. They both knew, from the night they met, and they both knew how close they came to actually doing something about it.

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Yeah, totally agree. I think that’s why I don’t hate the flashbacks as much as other fellow shippers do… I mean, for me they are the proof that they were true soulmates, that they shared something really deep and meaningful right from the start and they both knew it. And the fact that those feelings never faded and they kept on trying over and over despite everything shows me that even though their immediate connection came out in a pretty ugly way, what they had was something substantial and real, not just lust and infatuation.

In a weird way, those flashbacks actually showed how much they deserved to be happy in the end, as they had grown so much as people over the years and eventually reached a place where they could accept what was between them. The real tragedy was that Kara made poof (and that, that is what really pisses me off about their ending).

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Ugh, the Poof kills me, if only because they had FINALLY worked out their issues, it seemed. They FINALLY had time to be together without frat regs, or the constant threat of being blown out of the sky, or duty to the fleet. They EARNED that. They earned being together, and they got totally screwed out of it.

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I think you may be right about it being my longest comment ever. lol I blame the Advil PM for lulling my brain into a bit of a ramble.

As for it being out of character for Kara to proposition him with Zak right there, while I don't disagree, I think that part of the point of that was to show how much everything else falls away for the two of them when they're together. I really think that until the glass broke and he woke up, both Lee and Kara had completely forgotten Zak was in the room, hell they may have been so caught up in the booze and each other that they forgot he existed in the first place. They really only have eyes for each other, those two.

Edited Date: 2010-04-12 10:08 pm (UTC)

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com

That part of it is appealing, I think it's just the crude and inelegant way they set it up. Like a dare. Not romantic, nothing about their actual feelings, just like she was daring him to play pyramid with her or something. I put it down to Ron going back to his show bible and trying to portray the Apollo/Starbuck relationship as this match between hot-blooded viper jocks (and on Kara's side--he's always had this thing about making her be promiscuous), which doesn't account for everything else they are (and esp. everything Lee is/isn't). His comments about wanting someone more jock-ish for the Apollo role in the Daybreak commentary have colored my perception maybe. But I think he wasn't really thinking about his characters and they way they had come to life so much as the initial idea of them that he had...and not taking into account that the actors portrayed it differently maybe.

Edited Date: 2010-04-12 10:46 pm (UTC)

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