DPP: Facilitator or Traitor?

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I've become interested in how other characters on BSG perceived Kara and Lee and their relationship. Who knew what and when? Who facilitated the relationship, who interfered, who hadn't a clue? These are the burning questions up for discussion in today's DPP.

I've grabbed a bunch of photos from UB, just to get the character discussions going, but I am interested in the WHOLE series. Feel free to talk about other characters or to extrapolate about how a clueless character might respond if he or she ever had an opportunity to facilitate or interfere.

So, my lovelies....what say you?

Traitor? Facilitator? Neutral? Or too frakking clueless or self-absorbed to care?

  

 

 

  

 

 


And a little bit of our lovebirds to keep us all happy and smiling:

Comments

[cynicalshadows.livejournal.com]

I am firmly of the opinion that Adama had no frakking clue about Kara/Lee. His comments to Lee about Kara getting married to Sam, and the way he acted like Lee's grief for Kara wasn't comparable with his own just added to my conviction. If he did know and still acted like that, he should be proud of himself for winning the douchey father of the year award.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Yes, total douchey father of the year. His cluelessness about Lee in general drives me crazy. The one that really bugs me, though, is TYROL. I have him in the traitor category starting in S3. He seemed cool with K/L while he was with Boomer, but after New Cap, he seemed less tolerant. IMHO, he lied to Lee about never thinking about what could have been with Sharon. That ranks up there with Tigh's (deleted) advice to Kara, although I have to say I don't even really understand why she made the choice she did based on what he said.

You wiser shippers are gonna have to fill me in.

So far for me:
S1, 2, 3, 4 (forever) Adama = traitor
S1/2 Tyrol = possible facilitator given opportunity
S3/4 Tyrol = traitor

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Tyrol and Sam got pretty close on New Caprica. But then Tyrol and Lee were drinking buddies in S3 (and he and Cally were gonna leave Nicky with Lee and Dee).

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

IMHO, he lied to Lee about never thinking about what could have been with Sharon.

He totally lied on that! I understand why. It was probably just way too painful for him to admit that he was settling while he was still trying to make it work. But I still wonder what might have happened differently if he'd answered truthfully. Maybe nothing -- he might have taken it as validation that it's normal to wonder "what if" but not act on it. I don't know.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

I have my theory on why Kara chose Sam over Lee. I can't find Tigh's actual quote (the internet chooses NOW to epic!fail?), but it was something to do with self-preservation. While I never really understood the Kara/Sam thing overall from Sam's POV, for Kara it was a safety net.

During the whole New Caprica crazy-shouting-of-their-love scenes, Lee has this line about being afraid to admit he needed anyone that much. Kara's reaction to that statement, a "yeah" so weighted that it says all the things she never does, sets up her decision the next morning. So, essentially, "It's scary to need someone, so I'll pick this guy who is nice but I don't really need. If he dies, eh."

This, of course, fails to take into account that she's still going to love and need Lee no matter who she's married to, and that leaving him in the field will really do nothing to protect her heart if anything happens to him later.

Oh, my poor, misguided Kara...

[jeebs83.livejournal.com]

They all knew. The pilot eye frakking and chemistry was too obvious. ;)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

HA! It was a conspiracy! Motherfrakkers!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Ooh this is fun!

I maintain that until UB/Eye of Jupiter, the only ones who knew were Chief (in the mini when he tells Kara about Lee's death and then in 33, oh yeah--and Cally probably had a clue too I suppose); Roslin in Home when she saw the kiss, and Tigh may have suspected (I surmise from him pushing Lee in Act of Contrition and the ep where he says to Adama "Thank god I don't have kids") and obviously he found out for sure in the UB flashbacks. Oh wait and Baltar of course because of the Leegasm! Dee obviously mentions it too in the New Cap flashbacks and then Sharon mentions it in UB present day and Anders also finally gets a clue.

OK that's a bit more than I thought. Heh.

The nuggets/other pilots may have witnessed some sexual tension but I think they dismissed it for the most part as Starbuck being Starbuck maybe?

Helo, as wonderful as he is, was always clueless poor boy, and moreover, he was a Kara/Sam shipper after The Farm. :(

Adama still has no idea his kids ever got horizontal and would be apalled to find out!

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Helo, as wonderful as he is, was always clueless poor boy, and moreover, he was a Kara/Sam shipper after The Farm. :(

It's funny how people in fic often seem to make Helo a K/L shipper. Is there any evidence? Or is he just supportive of Kara in general? Maybe it's all wish fulfillment. *sighs*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I think the end of Scar when he insists Anders is Kara's reason to live for is what makes me say he's a K/S shipper. Also, he just never once seemed to have a clue about Kara/Lee. And he got off on the wrong foot with Lee (though he did help him lose that noodle weight later!) I also think Helo had a bit of fanboy love for the Buccaneers.

I wonder too now if there was a deleted scene I'm forgetting where he talks to Kara about Anders. Might be. I know they have a scene in Someone to Watch Over Me that got deleted where they possibly talk about him, but I'm thinking way before that.

Edited because I totally misread your answer. I think K/L fans like to have him supporting Kara and obviously that's gonna mean being a K/L fan/supporter in our stories. Maybe the K/S people use Helo as a booster/advocate for their ship in their stories?

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I agree that Helo's oblivious/just wants Kara to be happy. He didn't even meet Lee until after the Farm, so he had nothing to compare Sam to, and... Yeah, the scene at the end of Scar was unfortunate. (But I still refuse to believe he was talking about Sam rather than The Promise. ;-P)

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I think Athena might actually have been a Lee/Kara facilitator. I mean... I have no doubt that she loved Helo, but she also knew what it was like to be stuck in the middle and have to make that choice. Or at least think about it (since she shared Boomer's memories). It's hard to tell, though.

Roslin -- She definitely knew, but I think she was probably fairly neutral on the issue. If they'd worked out, she would have been happy, but if they didn't it was no skin off her back, either.

Tigh was too cranky to every facilitate anything. And Ellen was TOTALLY a traitor. She wanted Leland for herself. Even if only as someone to tease.

Baltar... Knew. I think I place him as traitor in S1, and then neutral for the rest of it. He got far too absorbed in himself and his own power to care what happened between Kara and Lee once Kara had made it clear she wasn't doing anything with him.

Dee was obviously a traitor. She wanted Lee for herself.

Sam? I don't know. I think Sam actually would have facilitated if given the opportunity. Whatever faults and failings he might have had (and he was a character on this show -- he had plenty), he did love Kara and want her to be happy. If that had meant handing her over to Lee, I really believe he would have done it in a heartbeat and been... sad to see her go, but ultimately satisfied that she was happy.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I tend to think Roslin secretly hoped those kids would work it out...if just for the hug in her dream sequence in The Hub. I mean they weren't making out or anything, but the hug was kind of ... intimate.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Adama was clueless... although can you really blame him? He had a LOT on his mind, being one of the two people in charge of humanity's survival.

Roslin... Roslin was a shipper... she got a first row seat to their... well I feel like calling it a Freudian Slip Kiss because that's completely what it was. "Did I just do that? I... um.. didn't mean to?"

I think that Sam might've been a facilitator when he finally wised up... in fact he did encourage Kara to go after Lee... but Lee and his own issues got in the way of all that. Sadly, I don't respect Sam for staying with Kara after that, but I can see why he did. (I'm disliking him less and less which is confusing to me.)

Tyrol...definitely facilitator early on... but then he got all wrapped up in his shit... and... well... his shit sucked :(
I don't think Dee was a traitor, but she wasn't a facilitator either. Not at first anyway. I think she had pretty realistic views about Lee's feelings for Kara and never manipulated him to make a decision. Lee is the one who proposed, Lee is the one who said she was good for him. Dee knew all along that Lee loved Kara and would only have him as long as Lee would have her.

Helo... Helo wants Kara to be happy. Whatever that means for her, he will back her up and support her. But his conversation about Sam at the end of Scar is just one of those things that points to how bad the writing was in that episode. I mean the writers already washed their hands of Black Market... but Scar... I wish they'd wash their hands of that too.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

I don't think Dee was a traitor, but she wasn't a facilitator either. Not at first anyway. I think she had pretty realistic views about Lee's feelings for Kara and never manipulated him to make a decision. Lee is the one who proposed, Lee is the one who said she was good for him. Dee knew all along that Lee loved Kara and would only have him as long as Lee would have her.

Yeah, my feelings on Dee are... complex. You nailed the situation with the above. I felt bad for her as soon as we find out in UB that she was fully aware he was in love with Kara when he proposed.

I know it's the end of the worlds and all, and 40,000+ people left of humanity, but to be OK with Starbuck's cast-offs and think Lee would get over her while still serving in the same small military force... Dee could have found someone to love her back, even on just Galactica. When she shot herself, I just kind of nodded and said, "Yup. That's been a long time coming." She's only really a traitor to herself, for settling.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

LJ = EPIC FAIL

This is the first time I've been able to log in all day.

Anyways....

Adama: I think Adama has always been clueless when it came to Lee/Kara especially Lee’s feelings towards things. I understand that he had a big burden to bear but to not recognize pain in your own child’s eyes is something else.

Roslin: I think Roslin always knew. She was a witness to their first kiss. I believe early on she didn’t care either way. At closer to season 4, she has started to think of Lee as her son (kinda) and she wanted him to happy and that was with Kara.

Tigh: Well, crazy Tigh knew how Kara felt about Lee and we know untrusting Tigh is of people he doesn’t know. In a weird way, he would want Lee and Kara to be together even if to keep Starbuck out of his hair.:)

Ellen: I wouldn’t want her anywhere near either one of my pilots. The woman will do anything to preserve herself. And she has a creepy obsession with Lee. No one can steal Lee’s virtue but Kara.

Tyrol: I think early on he definitely thought there was something going on between pilots. I don’t he may have been the first to suspect there was even something between them. Later on, I think between dealing with who Sharon was and Cally; he just didn’t care.

Cally: I would like to say that Cally was a K/L shipper like she is some fics. She didn’t want to leave Nicky with any pilots but she was ready to leave him with Dee and Lee. Dee and her might have bonded because Dee was the darling of CIC and Cally of hanger deck. There might been a point when Cally was infatuated with Lee as well. Definitely a traitor!

Helo: I honestly think Helo thought that Lee was never good enough for Lee. May be because he knew the history they shared or may be because their first meeting was so volatile. I would think he would since they seem to have become friends during the whole NC timeline. I really couldn’t stand him in S4 because he didn’t even support Kara. Not a supporter!

Athena: I think Athena was definitely a shipper. As weird as it sounds, I think next to Lee, she was probably the only one that understood Kara. She never spoke but she observed people quietly. I’m sure she discovered the eye-frakking and everything in between.

Dee: Most definitely not a supporter. She wanted Lee all to herself. She didn’t think what she had was good enough and wanted someone with more prestige. No way would a woman agree to marry a man that she knew loved another even if he was the last man on Earth.

HotDog/Pilots: Well who wouldn’t want Mom and Dad together? We never got to see pilots’ reaction to Kara/Lee interacting. The only time that comes to mind is after Kara’s death, Lee calls Racetrack Starbuck and the room becomes silent. They knew they had a bond. And if they drove each other nuts meant that Starbuck was leaving them alone.

Baltar: Kinda can’t hate on Baltar, he was the one that bought out the jealous streak in our Leland. He knew he never had a chance with Kara. I mean a Leegasm is pretty much of a giveaway as to what her feelings are. I don’t think Baltar would willingly support them because he thinks he lost his prize to the golden boy of the fleet.

Sam: I think if he knew their history, he would have never gotten involved. He would have never let himself fall for a woman whose heart would never be fully his. When he asks Kara if she loves him, I think he knew that he just couldn’t compete. At that point he had spent some time on Galactica and may be learned about Lee a little bit more.

That's all for now.:)

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

LJ = EPIC FAIL

This is the first time I've been able to log in all day.

So it's not just me then!

Anyhoo. I agree on most of these--especially clueless Adama. I do think Ellen might have suspected though. I bet she just assumed everybody was frakking.

Helo: I think you're right that his first encounter with Lee was pretty telling. Plus, he sees Kara with Sam before he sees her with Lee. So from Helo's perspective, Sam came first (although we know the truth!).

[ask74.livejournal.com]

Helo: I honestly think Helo thought that Lee was never good enough for Lee. May be because he knew the history they shared or may be because their first meeting was so volatile. I would think he would since they seem to have become friends during the whole NC timeline. I really couldn’t stand him in S4 because he didn’t even support Kara. Not a supporter!

I don't really know but I always thought that Lee and Helo knew eachother from before the end of the worlds. Remember in the mini when the CAG is intrducing Lee to the pilots in the briefing. Helo waves and Lee nods. I always interpreted that as them knowing eachother!?!

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

'Adama: I think Adama has always been clueless when it came to Lee/Kara especially Lee’s feelings towards things. I understand that he had a big burden to bear but to not recognize pain in your own child’s eyes is something else."

Couldn't agree more.


"Dee: Most definitely not a supporter. She wanted Lee all to herself. She didn’t think what she had was good enough and wanted someone with more prestige. No way would a woman agree to marry a man that she knew loved another even if he was the last man on Earth."

Not so sure. Granted, she wanted Lee, but I think she really loved him. Now about settling for a man who loved another woman... that happens in real life, as well. And in that scenario, with humanity almost wiped out, it's not like there's much to pick from. Besides, she was not the only one settling... Lee, Kara, Tyrol did the same. I guess the end of the world is not the time to find love. ;)

[(Anonymous)]

I think Roslin was a shipper. I think she liked seeing couples get together and would have liked to see Dee and Billy as well. I don't think she was a facilitator though, she liked it but had her hands full with her other stuff.

I think Dee was a traitor, because she wanted Lee to herself.

I think Tigh probably was clueless, but had he known in S1/S2, he would have been a facilitator, but for self interest reasons- because Kara sleeping with Lee would have put her in a better mood and kept her out of Tigh's hair, both of which would have been good for Tigh.

Nobody mentioned Cottle. Did Cottle know? Probably, both of them spent enough time in sickbay for Cottle to figure it out. I think Cottle was for whatever relationship between them would keep them out of his sickbay ;)

In my personal canon, and I know it's unpopular, Adama knew and supported it, but didn't do any facilitating.

I agree with others that Helo wanted Kara to be happy. I think he would have been a facilitator if he wasn't so busy with his own stuff.

[thegreenkitty.livejournal.com]

Oh, LJ how I hate you for eating my comment from this morning and then not letting me log on all day! I am too lazy to try to recreate my thoughts in their entirety so I'll try to just give highlights...

Adama: clueless S1-S3, thought of K/L as sister/brother

S4: he could've gotten a clue from Laura but by then EJO was too busy overacting/poorly directing himself and the writers were too busy smoking really bad crack for anyone to bother with it

Roslin: a romantic at heart and totally a K/L shipper, she valued brains too highly to have much use for Sammy...Kara and Lee were more her type

Cally: likely K/L

Kat/HotDog: probably didn't know all the details, but I think they suspected and shipped K/L

Tyrol: K/L for S1-2, K/S for S3 due to New Cap events, S4 too busy angsting over being a cylon to care

Helo: just wanted Kara happy, was too nice a guy to really choose but tried to be friendly with both Lee and Sam

Athena: too busy with her own issues to care...although maybe did see some of the K/L sparks in her own quiet way

Boomer: K/L shipper until she went crazy/cylon on us

Tigh: I think he shipped K/L...he'd never admit it though. ;)

Dee: just became a pawn of the writers...S1/2 Dee would never have married Lee knowing he was in love with Kara...I don't think we saw the real Dee again until she realized "hey earth is crap AND I have sucked the last season and a half" and put a bullet in her head

Sam: is useless as a character (in my world)...he doesn't serve a valid purpose until after he's revealed to be cylon...he's basically just a really dull faithful puppy dog...I mean we already had Helo to be the adorable and sweet pretty boy so we didn't really need another one...also Helo was infinitely more likable b/c he stood up for himself and had convictions in a way that Sam never did...blah

I wonder what Leoben would think if he put aside his crazy stalker tendencies and relied on his knowledge of Kara and what would be in her best interest. I'm completely biased, but I tend to think he'd be K/L.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

LJ was being very silly yesterday.

I agree with you the whole Dee issue. I'm having the same discussion above with damao2010.

Tigh is totally a shipper. Heck he was the first to know that Kara slept with Lee.

I wish they had left Sam on Caprica. I know that people got attached to Helo and they made a story arc out that and bring him back but Sam could've stayed dead.

I never thought about Leoben but I can see that. If he wasn't totally a nut case, he would totally have killed Sam for Kara and Lee.:)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Heh. Leoben. He would totally airlock Sam if Kara wanted it. I like to think he wouldn't airlock Lee cause he'd respond to the intensity of it, but I think he really wants Kara for himself so he can get his destiny freak on.

[http://users.livejournal.com/wisteria_/]

I am all meta-ed out, but I just wanted to say that this is such a clever topic. I've enjoyed reading all the replies. :)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Awww...thanks. I loved reading them, too. Love talking about the show and, of course, the pilots. :)