Our Remaining Questions

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hi everyone -- so sorry for the delay in today's DPP!  Real life intervened a bit, but better late than never, so here we are.  Please accept these pilot-appropriate macros as my apology:



 



For today, I was thinking about a few unanswered questions I have about little moments of characterization throughout the series.  After being around fandom for a fairly long time, I'm always excited to realize that I still have bits of meta I haven't really thought about.  Here are a few of my questions, and I would love it if in the comments you would share your opinions, and also add any unanswered questions of your own :)

The Chief and Kara:
> In the miniseries, I still feel like I don't fully understand the context behind the moment Kara and Tyrol share on the flight deck, when Tyrol tells her that Lee is dead and she responds by asking about Sharon.  Why did Tyrol tell her about Lee in particular?  Was it common knowledge among the Galactica crew that Kara had been involved with one of Adama's sons?  Did everyone know it was the *other* son, or did people assume it had been Lee (and therefore assume that Lee was Kara's ex?)  Or do you think Galen told her because he knew about Zak, and thought Lee's death would bring back those memories?  I ask because - correct me if I'm wrong - I don't think Tyrol had ever seen Kara and Lee together at that point.  They hadn't been together, except for the brig.

Gaeta, Kara, and Lee:
> Felix obviously had a lot of reasons for resenting Kara (his near-airlocking, his leg, and her marriage to a cylon were the ones he mentioned), but do you think he blamed her for Dee's unhappiness/suicide?  As much or more than he blamed Lee?  And with Lee, did you get the impression that Gaeta knew about Zarek's plan to have Lee shot during the mutiny as soon as he got to the Galactica?  Gaeta must have given the clearance for the shuttle to land in the midst of that comm blackout, right?  What did he think was going to happen there?  Because in every other case - even Bill, even THE CYLONS - Gaeta ordered them put under arrest, not killed outright.  Was Lee his one exception to that, or did he just not know what was going on?  I ask because I always thought that look of hatred Gaeta directed at Lee when he runs out of the morgue in SaGN was supposed to lead somewhere.

Roslin, Bill, and pilots:
> So, Roslin saw them kiss as early as "Home Part 2," and in her dreams she clearly imagines them as cuddly, if not an explicit couple.  Why did she keep that insight to herself?  I find it a bit hard to believe that over her whole relationship with Bill, Kara and Lee just never came up.  Did they really never talk about the kids?  Or did she deliberately decide to let Bill think whatever wrongheaded things he wanted?

Anyhow, I'd love to hear your thoughts, either in comments or in little drabbles if you feel so inclined :)  And please, point out for us any mysteries in characterization, big or small, that you are still puzzling over!

Comments

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Super interesting questions...

Re: The Chief and Kara - I'm not sure if the crew would have known Kara had been involved with one of the Adama sons, but I do think they would have known she was especially close to Bill so it makes sense to me that the Chief would guess she was also close to Lee.

Re: Kara, Lee and Gaeta - This is a great question and I don't have a complete answer to it, but it certainly stands to reason that Gaeta would blame Lee and possibly Kara for Dee's suicide. I'm going to have to do more thinking about this one.

Re: Laura, Bill and pilots - yeah, I don't get this one. My best guess is that Laura figured that Bill knew and left it alone. If for no other reason than I can't imagine her not saying something to someone about Lee and Kara. Just weird. *shakes head*

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

ooooh, ~thoughts.

I still feel like I don't fully understand the context behind the moment Kara and Tyrol share on the flight deck, when Tyrol tells her that Lee is dead and she responds by asking about Sharon.

hm. The Galactica crew seems to have been pretty informally close early in S1, after those years of living in each other's pockets with nothing to do but drink and gossip. I'm sure people knew the whole Zak story, even if Lee's estrangement from his father seems to have been pretty private. I think they'd have assumed she and Lee knew each other.

Was Lee his one exception to that, or did he just not know what was going on? I ask because I always thought that look of hatred Gaeta directed at Lee when he runs out of the morgue in SaGN was supposed to lead somewhere.

I kind of handwaved it as the kill order having come from Zarek, or the arresting officers taking matters into their own hands. Either way, they'd just say he resisted arrest. I don't see Lee as having been high enough on Felix's shit list to have merited special treatment.

I find it a bit hard to believe that over her whole relationship with Bill, Kara and Lee just never came up. Did they really never talk about the kids? Or did she deliberately decide to let Bill think whatever wrongheaded things he wanted?

If I were her, I would stay SO far out of it. Laura plays pretty close to the chest anyway, and there's so much tension between her and Bill about Lee (especially about the events surrounding Kobol). I'd be more surprised if she had tried to get involved.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if the crew would have known Kara had been involved with one of the Adama sons, but I do think they would have known she was especially close to Bill

Yeah, I agree that her "surrogate daughter" status was pretty common knowledge, and I, too, am unsure about how much of the whole Zak thing was ever talked about. On the one hand, Bill went to his son's funeral and came back with Kara, so it seems like the long-time crew members could make that basic connection pretty easily, though they may not have jumped to the 'romantic relationship with dead son' card. More like, this kid served with his son and reminds him of all the potential he might have fulfilled. So, yeah, I could see Tyrol telling her as a sort of family announcement.

It's a nice touch on the screenwriter's part to parallel Sharon/Tyrol and Kara/Lee there, A.k.a. the 'secret, forbidden romances' that are actually totally obvious.

it certainly stands to reason that Gaeta would blame Lee and possibly Kara for Dee's suicide

I always thought he probably would feel a lot of blame about that, especially since he experienced the suicide so viscerally, hearing it happen and being the first one on the scene. But then the show didn't seem to show any specific response to that, beyond his feeling even more like he had nothing to lose. So I just thought it might be interesting to read a bit extra into Lee being the only main character to get specifically targeted for a quick bullet to the brain. But I kind of doubt the creators were really intending to convey a revenge scenario there; I think it was more that Gaeta didn't really care how Zarek got Lee out of the way, whereas clearly he did care about disposing of Bill *his way.*

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I'm sure people knew the whole Zak story, even if Lee's estrangement from his father seems to have been pretty private.

On the Zak thing, I could see it going either way, either being kept private between Kara and Bill or 'the crew knows the basics and makes up the rest.' It is interesting that they all were apparently blindsided by Lee's resentment of his father, which makes me think Kara (and Bill, for that matter) hadn't said a word about him over the last two years. But yeah, I am leaning toward the idea that Tyrol meant it as a kind of family announcement. Given that Kara had already lost the majority of the friends/pilots she had been working and living with everyday for the last two years, it seems like Tyrol might not have expected Lee's loss to be as big a personal blow. But then she answered him by asking about Sharon, the most important person in his life. Kind of a giveaway there, Kara.

the kill order having come from Zarek, or the arresting officers taking matters into their own hands

Oh, that's interesting! I always assumed Zarek, his associates piloting the Raptor, and the kill squad that came to meet them in the hangar were all coordinating with each other in a deliberate plan, and I just wondered if Gaeta were in on it, too. I never thought that it might have been an on-the-ground switch from arrest to murder, but obviously I wouldn't put such a thing past the-guy-who-lost-his-son-on-New-Caprica-whose-name-I-can't-remember. Due process, thy name is not that guy.

there's so much tension between her and Bill about Lee (especially about the events surrounding Kobol). I'd be more surprised if she had tried to get involved.

Interesting! Oddly enough, I always thought Lee (and what he stood for) was the big reconciliation point between the Bill and Laura on Kobol. They have that conversation where Bill says to her that he owes all their lives - and specifically his son's life - to her, and that for that reason alone they should be content not to second-guess themselves. And there was all that talk of bringing the 'families' back together that motivated Bill to go to Kobol in the first place. And then it's the core family - Bill, Laura, Kara, and Lee - that share that vision of Earth together in the Tomb of Athena. I actually thought family, especially embodied in Lee who Bill and Laura both cared so much about (and from this point forward stop competing over), was one of the few things that really powerfully brought them together.

All that being said, I definitely see your point about Laura always playing emotions close to her chest, and like so many characters on this show, she and Bill were not 'talkers' when it came to their feelings, so why should they talk much about other people's?

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Regarding Gaeta, I can't say I ever interpreted his look as hatred when Lee passed him in the hall outside the morgue. I always interpreted it as grief and sadness and anger. I think Dee was very honest with herself and most likely with her friends about the nature of her relationship with Lee. I don't think she'd sugarcoat it for Felix and I don't think she'd ultimately blame Lee for her own unhappiness. I see very little connection to Kara at all in the mix (aside from Lee's infidelity.)

My feeling about that scene is more that "here goes Lee ignoring everyone around him for his own pain". Lee had to know that Dee and Felix were close, but he barrels right past him. I do understand Lee, of course, and I don't mean to be harsh, but I have always been frustrated by the lack of simple acknowledgement of Felix's pain - a man on the outside once again - unacknowledged in his physical suffering and mental anguish.

OTOH, I think it's understandable of course - Lee was grieving - but I also think it's a trickle-down reflection of Bill's OWNING the grieving a few moments before. Bill sucks all of air out of the room and all Lee can do is run - there's not even a moment to acknowledge anyone else's pain because his has gotten shut down by his father. That whole trio is just awful.

As for the mutiny, I think Felix was shocked at the deaths and had not ordered Lee's death nor would he have condoned it (at least at that point). I find it likely that Zarek gave the order to Connor.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Great thoughts, I find myself nodding along with basically everything you're saying here. The one thing I still feel unsure about, though, is whether Felix might have resented or blamed Lee in a way that Dee herself didn't? Dee loved him, Felix didn't. Dee despaired but was able to let go of everyone with love, whereas Felix wanted a reckoning for people 'to answer for what they've done.' Of course a lot of his anger was wholly unrelated to Dee's death, but I do wonder if some of his personal bitterness about what happened to his friend might have redirected some of his anger towards Lee and added another layer to his many issues with Kara. But you're really right that we don't see much evidence of that on screen, just that one look after Lee in SaGN which can be interpreted in many ways. Pocochina is right that he had bigger fish to fry during the mutiny, and you're right that he seemed pretty determined not to sully himself with summary vengeance but to keep everything orderly and put his 'justice' on record for the history books.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I do think it's likely that Felix had some resentment about Lee hurting his friend and that when she chose to end her life, he would have been reminded of how unhappy she had been (with Lee). I also wonder if some of his anger would have been around the idea of "why didn't he save her?" I think there is a twinge of guilt in Felix's expression, too, and I wonder if he wasn't thinking the same thing of himself. Dee's death is so sad. :(

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

It is so sad. And it makes me especially sad for Felix :( He was right there for the horror of it. And I'm sure both he and Lee were asking themselves why they hadn't seen it coming at all.

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

POOR FELIX, I love him forevah. Yeah, I think he was kind of forcing himself to think in terms of best case scenarios with the arrests, assuming they'd all come peacefully for their trials. It was really important to him to have the moral high ground, and I can't see him being petty enough to make Lee an exception. I think it's far more likely that Zarek would decide to execute Lee along with the rest of the Quorum, and he certainly didn't involve Felix in that decision.

Due process, thy name is not that guy.

hee! Oddly, I think I remember his kid's name (Connor? or was his name Connor? there was a Connor!) but yeah, all I remember of him is RAGEFACE.

I actually thought family, especially embodied in Lee who Bill and Laura both cared so much about (and from this point forward stop competing over), was one of the few things that really powerfully brought them together.

Oh, for sure. But they still seemed very eager to put all that coup unpleasantness behind them; I don't think she would want very much to press the Kobol/you are a terrible father who doesn't know your son/Zak buttons for the sake of chatting about Lee's love life.

[embolalia.livejournal.com]

As for Kara and Tyrol:

There's a scene in UBEX where Kara tells Athena Lee's always been like this and Athena says "when you were with Zak?" which tells me that Kara had at least told Boomer she was involved with Zak - which Boomer would have told Tyrol.

The other suggestion I've heard is that Lee had asked Tyrol where Kara was, and that was how he found her in the brig, but it does require a bit of imagination :)

It's a nice touch on the screenwriter's part to parallel Sharon/Tyrol and Kara/Lee there, A.k.a. the 'secret, forbidden romances' that are actually totally obvious.

Plus it let them set up the reunion parallel minutes later, with Sharon/Tyrol kissing and Kara/Lee staring at each other holding hands :)

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

There's a scene in UBEX where Kara tells Athena Lee's always been like this and Athena says "when you were with Zak?" which tells me that Kara had at least told Boomer she was involved with Zak - which Boomer would have told Tyrol.

Oh, that's brilliant! I had totally forgotten that exchange. #lifemakesmoresensenow. Thank you!

This reminds me that I need to think more about Kara and Sharon's friendship, because it seems really potentially interesting even though it happened so much off-screen.

[embolalia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've always been stuck on the line in Scar where Athena tells Kara she was like a big sister to her. I wrote this (http://embolalia.livejournal.com/4596.html) about them last year. An interesting friendship for sure.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

Re: Kara and Chief and the 'Apollo's dead' conversation, he hadn't seem them together at that point but I'm sure he knew that the first thing Lee did when he got on the ship was go see Kara in the brig. At the very least, that'd clue him in that they were friends, if nothing else.

Plus, he might have known about Zak from Sharon (I'm guessing Helo knew too, since he'd been friends with Kara since their boot camp days, going by a cut line in Season 4 I think? and he could have spilled to Boomer, and from there to Chief..)

[winegums.livejournal.com]

re: Gaeta and the kill order for Lee, I don't think he sanctioned it - he clearly had no idea about Zarek's plan to butcher the Quorum before it happened, and if it hadn't been for a snap decision to take a Raptor over from Colonial One because Felix was controlling the lines, Lee would have been in that room too.

The whole 'due process' thing was kind of important to him, you saw how badly he wanted at least the semblance of a trial - he may have wanted to arrest Lee, as the President who brokered the Cylon truce and led them to ruined!Earth, but straight-up shoot to kill on arrival? I don't think so.