Letting go of the heavy pieces of furniture.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I’ve been reading pennyante’s “In the whole world”   and at some point  there’s this lovely scene between Lee and Adama . Here is a very tiny excerpt . It’s not really a spoiler, so I don’t think there’s anything to worry about.

"I don't know if Zak would forgive you," Bill Adama finally said. "I can see, now, that you need him to. You and Kara… you carry around this heavy piece of furniture between the two of you, and you look in vain for somewhere to put it down, and it never comes. There's never enough room. That's torture, Lee, and whatever else is true, you don't deserve that. No one who struggles as hard as you have to find ways to love others does."

This brings us to today’s topic – forgiveness.

They say that the stupid neither forgive nor forget, the naïve forgive and forget while the wise forgive but they never forget. 

Forgiveness never comes easy. How do Kara and Lee fit in all this? Are they stupid, naïve or wise? Are they something else entirely? Did they ever truly forgive each other? Did they forgive their parents? Did they forgive themselves for their (real or imagined) sins?

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I actually think Kara is extremely forgiving....of everyone except herself. Of all the people in the series except maybe Helo, she's the one who seems the most willing to forgive big/emotional transgressions, despite her confrontational nature and not suffering fools gladly. Aside from her ongoing rivalry with Kat and her general ire for any show of disloyalty, she doesn't really hold a grudge against people--Bill, Lee, even her parents, Sharon and Leoben she seemingly forgives.

Lee is a lot less forgiving of everyone...including himself too because of how much he invests in his own moral code. He's and idealist and he's disappointed quite often, which ends up leading to his own personal depression and making himself miserable. I guess the writers wanted us to think they were always stuck and never could quite forgive themselves for what they almost did...although Zak should have been a much bigger deal in the series if that was the case? I mean they mention him in AOC/YGHA and then he's never referenced again (even obliquely) until Unfinished Business. Oh and maybe that bit in Scar about dead guys... but that's too much about Sam for me to be sure.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

He's and idealist and he's disappointed quite often, which ends up leading to his own personal depression and making himself miserable

This is so much of why I love him. *smothers him in all the hugs*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I was a little iffy on Lee almost the whole span of the show, but after the finale I kicked over into this mood where I just want to see the poor guy get his happy ending all the time in fic now. Super protective. I don't want him to have to share Kara ever. And I want him to know she loves him best and always did. Yeah, Leland is my boo.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Leland is my boo.

I can't stop smiling at this. :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Hehe. Helo would be the naive (always forgetting and forgiving).

I guess you are right about Kara. But I think that happens because deep down she thinks whatever hurt she suffered she deserved because she was such a frak-up. Therefore, since she deserved it, there was never really anything to be forgiven, you know? Everything goes back to her twisted self-image thanks to mommy dear. It is such a contrast to her brash and loud façade. It gives her a greater sense of empathy, though, I guess.

I see your point regarding Zak. But (besides writers's fail), I guess we could explain that by the fact that this was the kind of shame each one of them carried in silence. It was a very personal failure for each one of them. Something they didn't need to forgive the other, but themselves, and they were never that much into talking about this sort of thing in the first place. So, I could see it as something that would eat at them for years. Each one for their own reasons.

I also understand what you're saying about Lee and I mostly agree. However, I don't think he is so unforgiving. I think the times he has a hard time forgiving is when he is afraid of getting hurt. He forgave Kara pretty easily when she confessed she had passed Zak. But it took him forever to forgive her after UB. I think he thought he had then. But when he was hurt again by her refusal to divorce Sam, he realized he hadn't and that's when he decided to stay with Dee.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

Does it make any sense to say that they almost always immediately forgive each other because they understand one another so well and at the same time, they never really forgive each other at all? Lol. No? Yeah, I didn't think so.

It's portrayed like they have never forgiven each other for their first fateful mistake against Zak and they play out the effects of that guilt throughout the series. Although in actuality, it's more themselves, not each other, that they can't seem to forgive.

Idk, I may be speaking nonsense again today.

Edited to add a few more quotes on forgiveness that I found particularly pilots-y or just funny...

Those that do you a very ill deed will never forgive you.

If I die, I forgive you. If I live we shall see.

Those who easily forgive invite offenses.

It is easier to forgive an enemy than a friend.

We pardon to the extent that we love.

[pennyante.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's so interesting a way of thinking about it--the flashback *we* see in the final episode is the kind of master key that lets us see the forgiveness/redemption they're working out throughout the series. So that, by the time we see it, although it explains much, it's also already moot, fixed, finished.

But thinking about it, I don't know if Kara forgives Lee. She stops being angry, in general--is that the same as forgiveness? She lets go of *everything*, not just grief/anger/etc.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I think losing the anger is a big part of forgiveness, of a kind anyway. Even if there's no formal forgiveness, not carrying around the anger and hurt can be the same thing.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

But thinking about it, I don't know if Kara forgives Lee.

You know, altough he certainly hurt her a lot at times, she probably always thought she deserved it and because of that I never really thought she felt she needed to forgive him. I've always thought she wanted to be forgiven and to be able to forgive herself.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Although in actuality, it's more themselves, not each other, that they can't seem to forgive.

I think that, when it comes to Zak, you are absolutely right. Only problem is that Zak was just the first of the things they needed forgiveness for.

Does it make any sense to say that they almost always immediately forgive each other because they understand one another so well and at the same time, they never really forgive each other at all? Lol. No?

Can I answer yes and no to that? LOL
I mean, I sort of think so too because they decide to leave the hurt behind and move on so many times. YET, when something else happens, those old hurt feelings resurface and that makes me think that hadn't really forgiven anything as much as tried to forget, you know. Only they just realized they hadn't forgiven when they actually remembered. Does that make any sense?

just doing a fly-by...

[thegreenkitty.livejournal.com]

Hey folks,

Thinking of you all and sending love from the catcave...

Also thought this vid was fitting for today's dpp and so i am dropping it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebA0INuSdL0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

--liz

ps--i vote for stupid moving towards wise for our wondertwins

Re: just doing a fly-by...

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

OMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!! :D


TACKLEGLOMPS YOU SO HARD!!!

I've missed you so. You need to come out of the catcave more often. :)

Re: just doing a fly-by...

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I second Bee, here. :)

Lovely vid, by the way.

[pennyante.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, I'm so jazzed you picked up on that paragraph!

Re: forgiveness--this is one of the big problems of Kara and Lee's story, I think. If you're going to forgive someone, they have to be able to name their transgression, acknowledge the hurt it caused, and explain what they're going to do to make up for it. Lee and Kara can't bring themselves to say almost anything. Lee does try to make it up to Kara, after she comes back, but without any of the acknowledging of what had happened before.

I mean, I think Lee gets there--he forgives his father, very gradually, and "I'm Lee/You're Kara" is a way of showing he forgives her, too. But I'm not sure Kara earned it--although she definitely *needed* it.

The show moves Kara to that annoying holy/angel place that's a half-step to the side of the world of apology and forgiveness. We're meant to think that that flashback scene with her mother at the end of "Maelstrom" is a reckoning, with her mother as Death personified. Kara showing up for her mother's death didn't make *me* inclined to feel anything like sympathy or forgiveness for her mother, and I doubt it changed Kara's relationship with all the guilt from the other deaths she wants forgiveness from.

It just made her start to forgive herself, a bit.

Self-forgiveness is ultimately the thing with Lee, too. He has a well of self-loathing that a suicide attempt and a fat suit wrote large. Did he forgive *himself*--for the betrayals and the missed chances and all that? The incompetent writing on the fourth season of the show didn't leave us many clues.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, I'm so jazzed you picked up on that paragraph!
First of all, I'm really in love with that fic. Besides, as I told you before, I absolutely adore that whole scene.

I agree with you that by the end of the series Lee gets to a point where he is finally able to forgive. I think Kara's death (as much as I despise it and think it was such a bad move, probably the worst the writers ever made) was what finally prompted him to do so. It kind of put things into perspective for him. By the time he delivers his "I'm Lee. You're Kara. Nothing else matters" speech he had reached such a level of peace and acceptance that I kind of thought he had been able to forgive himself as well. But I think you're right in saying we don't really have many clues in that regard.