No Takebacks

I think I'm probably the exception since I'm married to my beta. Though I don't always have a beta on what I post. (In a pinch, I'll just use a text-to-audio program, since I'm an auditory person and I can 'hear' my errors FAR more than I can see them.) In general, however, D's the BETA of AWESOME! His job is to be my constant sounding board, the reader for all the chapters I post, and the person who gives feedback on how it's going. And most the time, that's how my stories gets betaed.

That doesn't mean I ALWAYS use D to beta however, since I don't. If I'm writing Kara / Sam, I often ask someone else who's more K/S focused to beta since D tends to get thrown by the K/S dynamic and is VERY defensive of Sam. (Long story short: It just doesn't work if your beta keeps stopping every two minutes to tell you the fic's bugging him. LOL) So for solely Kara / Sam I tend to beg someone like coffeesuperhero or latteaddict to beta for me.

As a general rule, I get totally thrown by poorly written work, so I'm a big fan of a good beta relationship. I actually have a secret "beta in waiting" offer which I've yet to take up yet. (You know who you are). But who I'm certain I'll use in the future. *hugs*

From:

Long story short: It just doesn't work if your beta keeps stopping every two minutes to tell you the fic's bugging him. LOL

*shifty eyes* I never do that sort of thing when I'm beta'ing. Never! Right Bee?

I think that there's a lot of value to be had in engaging with a beta I trust on why they don't agree with the premise/theme/characterization that I, the author, am using. It makes me take a closer look at my assumptions and the mesasge that's actually being conveyed (as opposed to what I thought I was conveying), it keeps me from getting sloppy.

Storytelling is a form of communication, afterall, so it's really important to me that the audience buys what I'm selling. If someone isn't buying it, I like to see if my sales technique it off. :)

From:

I think that there's a lot of value to be had in engaging with a beta I trust on why they don't agree with the premise/theme/characterization that I, the author, am using.

I totally agree. However given that I value my marriage over my writing, I tend not to engage D in betaing K/S. He's very 'Sam' and anything I do with Kara just drives him nuts. LOL So... I just put that aside as "things that aren't worth pushing", and email someone else instead. *winks*

It is a little weird being married to the person who edits for me. Honestly. It's a whole different ballgame. :)

From:

Well, sure.

I was speaking more in generalities about having someone who doesn't think like you beta, not on you and your husband in particular. Personally speaking, Bee is a good friend (whom I value over my writing :)), but she is required to tell me when something is bugging her, and then to keep bugging me about it until we agree to disagree or I fix it to her satisfaction. It's the nature of our relationship though. Every beta/writer relationship is different, of course.

From:

she is required to tell me when something is bugging her, and then to keep bugging me about it until we agree to disagree or I fix it to her satisfaction. It's the nature of our relationship though.

This makes perfect sense! And I can totally tell from the way Bee speaks of you and your betaing abilities that it is a sound relationship. Can I ask you something (just out of curiosity)? How quick is your beta turnaround? Do you two beta back and forth several times over a chapter to hash it out or is it more smoothing edges once it's done?

Just wondering. The editing process of my current RL writing is just about killing me. (I'm currently revising version 33. There is no love left anymore at all.) I always wonder about other people's writing processes. :)

From:

I am going to answer with something annoyingly vague. It depends. :) We vary of course, but generally speaking. . .

I personally engage with Bee mostly on a conversational level on my fic until the entire thing is done. Sometimes I send scenes, but mostly so that I can either ask a specific question or becasue I need to make myself write and sending it to her is like turning in my homework. She doesn't redline until the end, and then she tells me the 1 or 2 (or 6 or 7) scenes she needs me to rewrite and why, along with the other minor edits. I do the minor edits (or not, depending on what I feel strongly about) and send the things I have to rewrite back to her to make sure they work, and then I'm done. It doesn't usually take all that long for what it is, but becasue she sees 12,00 - 17,00 words all at the same time, for the first time, it takes her some time to go through it.

Bee's a multi-chapter writer, so it's a litte different. For one, I only have to look at a couple thousand words at a pop, so that ostensibly takes less time. But becasue some of the details of the story aren't hashed out yet, we usually have conversations about where she's going and from where did she come. I call out things I see that don't make sense to me in the context of the story so far, or ask about ramifications for the future of other things. It can take some time, but no more than a night ususally.

The one thing that really challenges us is our style differences. I detest wordiness and will take out everything that isn't relevant to the story, or is too over the top (ask her about my aversion to the inner monologue - it has caused many a scuffle). Whereas she wants more detail and more swoon, for lack of a better word. Sh I think she's meaner, because I at least do her work for her by slashing things out, whereas she makes me write more. :(

Clear as mud? :)

From:

Clear as mud can be! That's very cool, hon! I always wondered. :)

From:

I think you nailed all the salient details, my dear. ; )

When I write a new chapter or oneshot or whatever, I usually do a chat session first to make sure the idea I have in mind works. So I get innibis to think on it and make sure there's nothing there that's just weird or OOC or goofy or ill-conceived. Like a general "I'm okay, you're okay" check. Then I write. Then I get her to redline. That turnaround is usually a day or two and then I post. But she pretty much knows what's coming b/c we've already discussed it on an outline level.

With her it's like she said. It takes longer b/c we outline everything up front b/c she doesn't do WIPs. And then redline takes a little longer. But we kind of dialogue all through the writing process, for both of us. I think we just write better when we've got someone kind of thinking it though with us as we go. I think it ultimately saves time.

And also, as she already alluded, the redlines are always take it or leave it. Aside from the spelling and grammar, it's always suggestion stuff. Sometimes she'll convince me her way is better, sometimes not. But I value her making me think through it.

From:

It is a little weird being married to the person who edits for me. Honestly. It's a whole different ballgame. :)

I hear ya. Mr. Bee used to be my go-to guy when I first started out. And aside from the marital politics involved, I eventually had to fire his ass (in love of course-- and it was totally a mutual firing), not for his lack of skills, but because he just wasn't, erm, fangirlish enough for me. I mean, he's a fan of the show but he just didn't get down and dirty into characterization, etc., and so I always kind of second-guessed what I was writing. And poor dear, he only did it b/c he loves me. It was just not his thing. But he was a total trooper. **salutes him**

From:

And poor dear, he only did it b/c he loves me...

Aw... nice, Bee! D does fangirl a bit, but he cannot multi-ship (whereas I can) so we sort of have our line in the sand, so to speak. LOL

From:

So wait-- is he a K/L or K/S shipper? I wasn't sure b/c you mentioned he's defensive of Sam.

But yeah. It can be tricky stuff. And really Mr. Bee and I have such different writing styles that we make each other crazy when we try and cross-review each other. Like, pistols at dawn kind of crazy. *g*

From:

D is a K/L shipper, but he is VERY defensive of Sam in canon and in fic. (Because D IS Sam. Period.) So although D might see Kara / Lee as "right together" (which of course they are), he gets VERY rankled by Kara's treatment of Sam in canon and in fic. (Yes. Even in mind.) *shakes head* It's also part of the reason that Sam almost always gets his 'own' happy ending in any longfic I write. (That's D's contribution. The constant: "So are you just leaving Sam all alone?!?" question.) Hee hee! If he's betaing K/L, then Kara and Lee can cheat on one another, fight like cats and dogs, try to kill each other... ANYTHING! and D doesn't bat an eyelash. Now... you get D to beta one Kara / Sam chapter and ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE. LOL #Fact

It's complicated, Bee. That's all I'm going to leave it at.

Edited Date: 2011-12-19 03:12 am (UTC)

From:

Ahhh, I see. Bless his heart. And I have a lot of sympathy for that position, as it's tough to watch Kara's treatment of Sam in canon sometimes. I like that he makes you give Sam a happy ending (innibis totally does the same thing with Zak, btw. It's adorable.)

From:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

If I had a nickel for every time you hit the "OH HELL NO" button on one of my ideas.....

But really, it's good. And even if we disagree (and we often do), it makes me work that much harder to make the idea work. And then sometimes, we just agree to disagree, which is okay too. But I think it's super-helpful to talk it through, regardless of how it all shakes down.

From:

Exactly. :)

Even when you or I move forward in the originally intended direction, I think it's better for having been forced to defend the direction first.

From:

Yes yes yes! Like a damn dissertation. Suit up, bb. ;P

(of course, I also reserve the right to hit the Jerry Bruckheimer/NCIS button, which is an entirely different matter)

/poking you with a stick

From:

GOD DAMNED NCIS!

From:

Although I always go back to the example of Six Swans' original plot. You just vetoed that thing in cold and decisive fashion - no dissertation or back and forth.

(thank God. I'd still be writing.)

From:

I totally did. I pulled the very rare veto out. Damn thing read like a Russian novel. ;P

(and the ultimate result was totally worthwhile)

From:

kballgetlost.livejournal.com

I haven't used betas much because a lot of my fic is posted the same day I write it. I'm mostly a one or two shot kind of girl, lol. I was however a beta for someone else on a huge Bones fic. It was a lot of fun and I think I was helpful. I'd love to beta for someone who needs one.

From:

scifishipper.livejournal.com

I have had a couple of different betas, all absolutely fantastic writers, who each offered me some amazing insights and tips for writing better fic (and tips that I use to this day). I grew in my writing, I struggled and worked on technique and voice and style in many ways. They have, without fail, given me more than I can thank them for and I am a better writer for having them.

That said, I have realized over time that I need a gentle beta. I get really thrown by too much critique and too much opinion about my fic and end up really hating the writing and doubting myself and my ability to write. (Yes, I am a delicate flower.)

So, as much as I have learned about writing, I have also learned that I need someone who can give me the space to trust myself and be an sounding board for my ideas. Does that work for everyone? Absolutely not, but I can say that since I started working with

kdbleu, my writing has never been better. She gives me just enough to get the muse working and not so much that I feel inadequate or like I can't figure out my own stuff. My muse is like breaking a stallion - it needs a light but firm and trusting touch. My muse is fragile, like it or not, and a heavy hand makes her skittish.

And the reason I know this works for ME? My writing has never been better. My last three major fics (two long ones and ten chapters of my WIP) have been the best my writing has to offier. That makes me so happy. (Although damned if I can write short fic anymore! But that's for another topic.)

In short, a beta is a must for developing as a writer. The RIGHT beta is a must for flourishing and finding your own best voice. THANKS, KATE! YOU ARE AWESOME!

From:

And the reason I know this works for ME? My writing has never been better. My last three major fics (two long ones and ten chapters of my WIP) have been the best my writing has to offier. That makes me so happy.

I think this is the true testament of a good beta relationship. And I'm totally in the same place. I feel like I'm continually becoming a sharper, more precise writer, and getting better at telling the story I want to tell. Your comment just sums it up really beautifully. : )

And of course that "perfect" relationship looks different for everyone. People respond creatively in different ways, so finding that perfect fit is so important. And when you do? Boom. *g*

From:

This is so beautiful, H. Honestly! I'm so glad you and Kate connected! :D

From:

scifishipper.livejournal.com

Me, too, bb. Me, too. :) *HUG*

From:

kdbleu.livejournal.com

*blushing*

It should also be noted that

sci_fi_shipper is also a really great beta because she's patient and willing to talk things out and she keeps me on task. So thank you too, bb.

From:

anamarya.livejournal.com

I have to admit that I don't write. Well, that's not true. I don't write fiction. Because writing per se I do a lot. For example, I just finished a 80plus pages of report. And he strange thing was that the hard part was writing it in our own language because for everything else we write in english. Technical, usually present tense English but still.
And even stranger is that I realized when I saw this that what i do usually - outside of the classroom - is filling in for a beta, normally at odd hours of the night. I cut and paste, and correct tenses and the most unusual typos that somebody can find outthere and then I start giving advice – not always solicited or wanted to everybody from out workgroup. So, even if our writing is way more clinical and definitely less original than what people do arround here I understand your struggle to write/beta. And I'll take this chance to thank you all for doing it.
We tend to say something to the writer in a form or another – long, short, with or without visual aids, etc and tend to forget everybody elses work, especially in the case of betas. And that's not right. Just as we stop and leave a couple of words at the end of every chapter/fic (btw, I do hope that everybody is doing it) maybe we should stop from time to time to appreciate the rest of the work.

waw, that was long. and proves my point that after the last couple of weeks this is the perfect place for me. "Critically" reading something else except test, thesis and scientific reports would be great. So, if anybody needs a sounding board or another pair of eyes, feel free to ask me to do it. On a normal day I’m awake when everybody else is sleeping. But bare in mind that English being my second (foreign) language some literary stuff - like POV shifts and convoluted time correlation, especially for past tense are bound to slip from time to time.

Anyway, since I wrote too much for a normal comment already, I'll just go on an say I'm sorry in advance for spamming some peoples inboxes but I do plan on reading a lot during the break and like you might know already - i do tend to comment a lot.

I’ll end by saying that this started in a way and totally went into another, unexpected one. So, don’t throw with vegetables at me because firstly it was unintentional and secondly I just might use them for the Christmas dinner.

From:

I feel like I can safely speak for all the other writers out there when I say, you go right ahead and spam us. We do like our comments. :)

From:

wicked-sassy.livejournal.com

Hats off the brilliant writers and hardworking betas. I really enjoy how smart, funny, and interesting everyone is in the comms--so good work, all of you all! Thanks for letting us read your stories!

I'm not a writer, but I'm interested in being a beta and/or cheerleader for a few folks, and am happy to be gentle or fierce in beta-ing as needed. In my off-line life, I do a lot of proofreading and editing, so I'm really good at it. If you're interested, let's discuss!

From:

YAY!! I'm so excited by these responses! Please please please follow up with each other, y'all. PM's are a great place to start. : )

As for me..... I LOVE BETAS. SO MUCH. I've been fortunate over the years to work with three (2 writers and a professional fandom critic--ha!) and it's been great. I don't think it's any secret that I've done a lot of work with taragel and innibis, and those have been incredibly good, collaborative relationships. My pro-critic, csm37 (aka, the Mysterious Kiki) is around less these days, but I'll still occasionally harass her to give me opinions when I feel like I need a different perspective (and she rocks actions scenes like no one else's business. Serious Jedi Master, right there.)

As you might guess, my preferred beta relationship is pretty gut-level honest and almost abrasive at times, but I really like being challenged. It's probably just a me thing, but I'm cool with confrontation and even (friendly) antagonism and I always, always like being challenged on my shit. So I really love someone who will push me on lots of levels-- way beyond spelling and grammar. Someone who'll get down and dirty on plotting, characterization, make sure my logic works, help figure out the details of different universes, won't let me get away with too many of my bad habits, don't mind me being forceful or argumentative or going toe to toe to work through an issue, etc.

As to particulars, it's interesting that I often choose to work with people whose style is very different from mine. I think it brings kind of a yin and yang balance to the force approach to fic, which is nice. I have a tendency to be overly wordy, and my prose can look a little purple, and sometimes I'm in love with swwon to the detriment of everything else. So, I enjoy working with people who have opposite strengths. For example, innibis is so ~~mean and cruel~~ forthright and honest that she often crosses out about half of what I write (especially if there's mush mush involved). But in a way it's awesome b/c we both understand the the final editorial call belongs to me, and it really makes me question and analyze why I use the words I use. And whether I need them. There's something so valuable in having to be able to defend your work on some level-- I feel like I really understand my story and the choices and I'm making b/c I've already had to defend it (but I totally live in an adversarial kind of world, and I have really thick skin; I understand this 'tough love' approach isn't for everyone.)

So anyways, much love to betas-- they rock my world. And on the flip side, I love doing betabee work. I think the biggest challenge is to try and separate my comments from the author's style. Back in the day I used to be all about convincing someone to write something the way I'd write it. Now I try more to understand the author's vision and they way they've chosen to tell a story before barging in with my two cents.

From:

Are you calling me abrasive (and mean and cruel)? I'm as gentle as a lamb, and twice as fluffy.

From:

You lie like I don't know what, you dirty evil harpy. But this is why I love you.

We also disagree on everything. Which is yet another source of my love. (There is something clearly wrong with me, I know, but I don't want a cure.)

From: