DPP: So THAT's how it is in their family.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Happy Labor Day, US pilotshippers! I'm kicking off this week's festivities with an intriguing question for discussion from bop_radar. She would like to know:






If Kara and Lee were (actual biological) siblings, but in other regards their relationship/dynamic was otherwise as close to what we saw in the television series as possible...

... would you still love them / feel the same way about them / ship them?

Why or why not?

Feel free to discuss in comments what factors influence your feelings or decision.


By the way, Guest Posts are welcome at the DPP anytime! If you don't feel you have it in you to host a whole week but want to bring up a topic or throw out some sort of meme/game/writing challenge or a pretty pic you want to share, just contact me via PM! ~taragel

Comments

[lint138.livejournal.com]

No. They'd be brother and sister. This isn't Game of Thrones. :D

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here: you find it ok in Game of Thrones but not here? (I personally would be more likely to ship Kara/Lee than Jaime/Cersei, but maybe I'm weird!)

Or maybe you don't ship siblings in GoT either? Like it's just always a clear no for you?

[lint138.livejournal.com]

It's always a clear no. The it's not Game of Thrones bit, just a failed attempt at humor.

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

If BSG turned into a soap opera and suddenly in the middle of the show we would found out that Lee and Kara are half-siblings, it would most of all make me really mad at the writers. I am sure that Lee and Kara would both struggle with the reveal but learn to accept it the same way I as the viewer would as well. I'd still like them but I wouldn't ship them anymore. I had to go through that with Arthur and Morgana from the BBC show Merlin. They were introduced as sort of foster siblings but had a lot of UST and knew how to push each others buttons. Later the writers decided to make them blood-related and it took me a some time to get used to it and to not to want to see them together.

If Lee and Kara knew that they were siblings from the start and yet still acted the same (flirting, eye-frakking, turning each other on and driving each other mad), I might find it interesting to watch, maybe even hot, but there would be something deeply sickening about it, which would make it awkward and impossible for me to root for them. It would completely change my view on both Kara and Lee and their dynamic as there would be no romantic element in the relationship anymore. Humans are genetically "programmed" to not to be sexually attracted to the people that we grew up with. It's to prevent incest, because the people that are surrounding us from early childhood, are most likely related to us. When those mechanisms fail, it indicates that there's something fundamentally wrong. And let's not forget that incestuous relationships in real life are nearly always about exercising power over a weaker relative and thus tend to be highly abusive. Siblings Kara and Lee using sex (or sexual attraction) to compete for power over each other is not something I want to watch.

There seems to be a lot of fascination with incestuous relationships recently. It makes things more intense and more complicated for sure. Love between "best friends" or "old-time/childhood friends" is always complex as it adds another element to the romantic relationship: the connection between these two is stronger than any romance can be because they know each other better and from different angles. It makes it more interesting and more intense but also more complicated. The stakes are much higher; if it fails you loose a lot more. Adding a sibling (blood related or not) element into the mix, is pushing it even higher: the two protagonists have what any romance would have (love and sexual attraction), plus they know each other like old friends, plus they know each other like brother and sister, so there's really no secrets left between them. It makes the relationship impossibly difficult, twisted, insanely intimate, dangerous and addictive all at the same time. It's really interesting and fun to watch when those are 'like brother and sister', but makes my stomach crawl, when they truly are blood-related.

To sum it up the Kara/Lee relationship really doesn't need more tabus; there's already enough obstacles, enough "wrongness" and strong enough sibling-esque vibe in it.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

So you equate a story about siblings being in love with a "soap opera"? I don't necessarily (and if you read below not everyone else does either). It could be written many many different ways, some of which might be very fake and artificial. But what if it was written very sincerely and beautifully?

genetically "programmed"
Genetically? Or socially? :p People can be socially conditioned to not be attracted to people from certain castes too... but sometimes people from different castes fall in love anyway. I'm not saying it's exactly the same but I'm just throwing ideas around because I don't personally agree that it's terrible for siblings to love each other deeply.

Of course a fundamental difference here may be that I don't see pilots' love/connection as primarily about SEX.

It makes the relationship impossibly difficult
Or possibly beautiful? (to me it is)

Thanks for the indepth response to the question! I don't share your feelings--it doesn't make my skin crawl, I can imagine them as siblings and still love the intensity of their connection, feel it to be as 'true' and real as in any other scenario, but that's why I asked the question: to see how common or uncommon that sentiment was.

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

So you equate a story about siblings being in love with a "soap opera"?

Not at all. But I do associate a sudden reveals like: "I never told you but you two are actually siblings" mostly with soap opera. It might be unfair cause I've never actually seen any soap opera and I mentioned that BBC Merlin did precisely that.

Genetically? Or socially?
Indeed, the inbreed avoidance mechanisms are genetically inherited. I don't want to go into details, but there's enough scientific studies to suggest that. Otherwise, we'd be extinct by now. Why would you go looking for a mate if you have one already at home? Shepher's work on children from Israeli kibbutzes (1970's) was one of the first to make it pretty clear that it is really not a social taboo but a genetic one. For Kara and Lee to have a romantic interest, they would have to been raised separately, at least for some time during their childhood.

I don't see pilots' love/connection as primarily about SEX.
Neither do I in any way, I thought I made it quite clear in both my earlier comments. However, incest in real life in most cases is pretty much all about power, sex and abuse.

Or possibly beautiful? (to me it is)
In a way I agree. I explained that I love the "almost incestuous" relationships a lot and not just with Kara and Lee. It's definitely my secret kink. I am, however, pretty certain that once the pilots knew that they were related, their dynamic would have changed. I think they would learn to live with it, accept it and love each other platonically. As I said in my second post, I would love it, love them and would definitely feel for them. After all, that's what's Kara and Lee at tried to do so many times, to accept that they will be just friends and nothing more. It never worked because they always knew that there is a chance that they can still be together in a romantic way. However, if they were certain that it was impossible to be together, because they are related, and nobody would ever accept that, I think they could albeit grudgingly succeed, after all there is so much more to their relationship than just sex. They could spend years torturing themselves with insane unfulfilled desires, but I'd like to think that it wouldn't happen. They do it on the show because there is hope. If you know that there is absolutely no possible way, you can have something, you'll learn to accept it and control it. Everybody does.

[howlinchickhowl.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's a question.

And an interesting one for me because I kind of have an almost-incest kink. Not biological incest, no, but a lot of the time best friends from childhood/people who were raised as siblings but aren't actually siblings/step-siblings who fall in love is a thing that I am often drawn to in stories. I kind of just really enjoy reading about/watching relationships with layers of different kinds of love.

But if Lee and Kara were actually related, I wouldn't ship them no. But if their relationship minus the kissing and the sex and the innuendo basically remained the same, I would definitely love them just as much. When it comes down to it they're just beautiful to watch together, and a brother and sister who love each other as much as they do, but without the part where they screw each other over? Yeah, I'd be into that.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

And an interesting one for me because I kind of have an almost-incest kink. Not biological incest, no, but a lot of the time best friends from childhood/people who were raised as siblings but aren't actually siblings/step-siblings who fall in love is a thing that I am often drawn to in stories. I kind of just really enjoy reading about/watching relationships with layers of different kinds of love.

Me too! Me too! I would be all over a version of Kara and Lee where they were raised as virtual siblings who really wanted to say "Frak it" after the ends of the world but couldn't quite do it. :D

[howlinchickhowl.livejournal.com]

I would be all over a version of Kara and Lee where they were raised as virtual siblings who really wanted to say "Frak it" after the ends of the world but couldn't quite do it.

Seconded! :)

[winegums.livejournal.com]

Thirded! ^_^

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

I kind of have an almost-incest kink. Not biological incest, no, but a lot of the time best friends from childhood/people who were raised as siblings but aren't actually siblings/step-siblings who fall in love is a thing that I am often drawn to in stories

Totally with you on this one. I love the "almost incest" thing too. I said it in my earlier comment, it makes things so much more intense, complex and intriguing, and the relationship so impossible and so more likely to be doomed. They get trapped in this insane connection with a person they cannot really be with but it also makes it pretty much impossible to be happy with anyone else. I feel like Kara/Lee have just enough of this incestuous vibe (even though they didn't grew up together) and I love it, but making them blood related changes the picture, not as much because incest is wrong but mostly because their dynamic would be different from what we saw on the show.

They'd either accept it and learn to love each other as siblings and best friends (I would still love the characters and love their dynamic) or they would spent the rest of their lives not getting in terms with it, being frustrated, obsessing about each other, hurting each other, lusting for each other and hating each other at the same. I would still love to watch that but I wouldn't like the characters that much anymore.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I kind of just really enjoy reading about/watching relationships with layers of different kinds of love.
So do I! I like your description of liking 'almost-incest'. I think I share that. :) And in many many situations I too would be wary with actual sibling incest... but with pilots I don't because I read their connection as being sincere. I guess I see it as the higher part of themselves that would love each other very sincerely.

they're just beautiful to watch together, and a brother and sister who love each other as much as they do, but without the part where they screw each other over? Yeah, I'd be into that.
Ha! Yeah... I'd want them EVEN MORE to overcome the hurting each other and mindfrakking each other parts... makes me realise that in some way in my mind when I imagine them being also siblings, it adds an incentive for them *not* to just push each other away forever. If a sincere bond of love is powerful enough to be felt despite a taboo against incest then I feel maybe it would lead them even more to the sincere part of themselves that accepts the other wholly... and loves them on a deeper level than simply screwing around with each other.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Mmm… This is a tricky question because one can’t help but wonder in which ways Kara and Lee’s relationship would have changed if they had been actual siblings and had been raised like that (being the latter a crucial factor for me). I tend to assume that, in this case, their dynamic would be quite different, lacking in the ever-present and oh-so-tangible sexual tension they had on the show. Maybe it’s me, but I just can’t swallow actual siblings having UST. It's not that I find it gross or squicky, it's just that I don’t find it believable *shrugs* (I guess the incest kink is not my thing… I have always been a best friends with buckets of UST kind of girl, hee).

That being said, if the scenario were a bit different and somewhere along the way we learned that Adama had an affair with Socrata and Kara and Lee were half-siblings and they didn’t know about it until they met… Well, here I think I’d ship them without any doubt, since I am guessing their dynamic would remain very similar (probably more ansgty).

But seriously, I don’t think the K/L relationship needed more angst or guilt or wrongness --the whole I am in love with my almost-brother/sister-in-law is more than enough! :)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

That being said, if the scenario were a bit different and somewhere along the way we learned that Adama had an affair with Socrata and Kara and Lee were half-siblings and they didn’t know about it until they met… Well, here I think I’d ship them without any doubt, since I am guessing their dynamic would remain very similar (probably more ansgty).

I can't help but think about our favorite GoT peeps as I read this. But yeah, in the case of K/L that would've poured a big bucket of cold water on my shippiness. Because those kids didn't need anymore impediments.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

those kids didn't need anymore impediments.

Too right they don't :)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I find it hard to imagine as well if they were raised in the same household... I can if I try really hard but it is so rare and I haven't ever read it written well/convincingly, so I do find it easier to imagine if their childhood involved at least some times apart / in separate parents' houses or something... but there are so many different situations in which they could technically be related by blood.

here I think I’d ship them without any doubt, since I am guessing their dynamic would remain very similar
The dynamic is all to you! :) I understand. That's why I specified that the dynamic *was* the same--I don't really mind what context people have to imagine for that ... as only half-siblings who never knew they were siblings or not. It's still interesting to me.

I see the 'angst' is a turnoff for people... and yet teasingly I do have to ask: really?! because didn't we all stick with them despite the CRAZY ridiculous contrived angst TPTB threw in seasons 3 and 4? Imagine some of *that* gone and siblings instead? is it really so much worse... not for me... and despite all that happened I still love and ship pilots (even if I do so quite separately from canon and find some of S4 canon to be untrue to them). For me it's a question of sincerity... if it is sincere and true to the characters then I love it. And since this is MY hypothetical scenario ;) I can imagine it written beautifully and sincerely, NOT just to create *pointless* angst. I guess I would distinguish between something that is a potential obstacle or journey of discovery/pain/grief that they have to go on but which ultimately leads them somewhere beautiful from 'pointless' angst. But I respect the line on that is probably different for everyone.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Well, hmmm. It kind of depends, I guess. And mostly it depends on what the point is. If the point was more angst, then I'd be annoyed because I felt like the TPTB already spent enough time throwing up reason why Lee and Kara could or should never be together. Siblings would have pushed me over the edge to a rage bordering on homicidal.

But if there had been some reason like they really were Artemis and Apollo eternally caught up in each other, and the story had been told convincingly, I would probably be very intrigued. Now, this example works for me because I've always loved the relationship between Apollo and Artemis so YMMV.

I should admit to being swayed by Game of Thrones when it comes to sibling romances. I'm not sure I really ship incest at all, but I do think this relationship can be written in a way that produces genuine feelings of sympathy and maybe even happy what ifs in the face of tragedy for the couple. *shrug*

Now,if in the beginning Kara and Lee had been introduced as half-siblings who were raised separately, met later and felt the same attractions, and it was revealed that they weren't related after years of coming to terms with not being able to be with each other and now being in separate, happy relationships, I would be all over that. Not really because it subverts the incest question but more watching Kara and Lee try to work out the possibility of being in a real relationship. (And WOW is there a twisty little story brewing in my head.)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your responses! I'm glad you were able to think of the story in several different possible ways and answered what your different feelings were in those situations, because I didn't have a fixed scenario in mind when I asked the question. I more wanted to find out (as you describe) what different factors might influence our feelings.

the story had been told convincingly
I'd use different words but it comes down to this for me too--if I imagine it told very beautifully, sincerely and with deep purpose and genuine appreciation for the characters and their love/connection, then I know I *could* love it.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

The only context in which I could possibly think of shipping them if they were siblings would be one in which they had never known that and had met as adults and fallen in love. If they had found out then, I would be really torn. Talk about angst. Otherwise, no way. If they had the same UST in this scenario, I'd probably think it was rather sick and wouldn't like them as much.

(I have only read Game of Thrones and not the other books in the series. I don't have much of a problem there because they are the bad guys so I don't eally ship them.)

[winegums.livejournal.com]

Oooooh, this is a question!

I've read a few books etc involving incestuous relationships, and a lot depends on how the story is told, really - I wouldn't be put off The Dreamers, The Magic Toyshop, The Cement Garden, One Hundred Years of Solitude or even Angel Sanctuary purely for their subject matter.

If pilots were biological siblings but in every other way stayed the same as they are in canon including the attraction, I'd still watch them, and (guiltily) ship - they're too fascinating to watch together. I'm guessing they'd be v. different as characters if they'd been raised together, though.

Of course, if the writers pulled some half-assed soap opera move like revealing the relationship some way into the story after they were unaware of it at first, that's the fastest way to make me STOP watching.

[howlinchickhowl.livejournal.com]

You know, I was all like, I just don't ever like incest stories, and then I remembered my second favourite book! The Hotel New Hampshire has the most heartbreaking incest story, it's so incredibly brilliantly written, so you're right about it depending on how the story's told.

they're too fascinating to watch together

Agreed.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Hee! I love that you had to add 'guiltily'. ;) Yeah, me too...

Seems like there is quite a lot of consensus in the responses to this post that it depends on whether it is 'cheap angst' or written beautifully and sincerely... I'm glad that at least some people can imagine it the second option! :)

Though honestly, having suffered to the end of season 4, I really don't know WHAT would have actually stopped me watching... I might have gone into screaming rages about it, but *stop* me? No... (I might have had to make up my own canon in my head, find where the line is for me, but hey, I had to do that anyway...)

[winegums.livejournal.com]

I really don't know WHAT would have actually stopped me watching.

It's more a matter of execution, really - I've read crap in which the otp turn out to be related, then not related, and all it's ever provoked from me is eyerolling. But that's the result of bad storytelling more than anything else.

I'm cool with canon and what we got of pilots in it, except for the pointless breakup in TAB - that was the only point at which it felt like pointless angst for angst's sake.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I would just like to say that I am wildly amused by that stompy picture of Adama that taragel added to this post! HEEEEEE. :D (And also I should specify that I don't think Adama has to be a or the shared parent in question necessarily... however thinking about his EPIC DISAPPROVAL in such a situation IS very amusing to me...)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

The only sibling relationship I ever come close to shipping was that of the Atreides twins (Paul's children) in the Dune series. But that really had nothing to do with the incest angle and everything to do with equality. For those not familiar with the books, they are intellectually/genetically unique and like no other people in the universe. They are truly something more than human and, as such, the only people who truly understand each other. Two kindred souls and all that. And in that case, they seemed to be the only people who could ever possibly be the perfect fit for the other. So I kind of shipped them despite the sibling relationship.

Spinning around back to pilots, it's the same thing I love about them. In my mind they're a kind of mirror opposites. Dissimilar on the surface but the same kind of (damaged) soul underneath. It's hard to explain that connection, but here's the best I can do: The one thing RDM got right in the flahbacks. The initial way they look at each other. That sense of I know you / I've been looking for you.

There you are.

They really are the only two people who will do for the other. Everyone else just comes up short. It's not really sibling-related, so much as the principle of like attracts like-- or perhaps more accurately stated-- extraordinary attracts extraordinary. : )

[winegums.livejournal.com]

Oh YES Dune!! Can't believe I forgot that one :)

That sense of I know you / I've been looking for you.

There you are.

And that's exactly it. In my head, it's like something clicked right into place in that moment - but I like the way you put it better :)

It's not really sibling-related, so much as the principle of like attracts like-- or perhaps more accurately stated-- extraordinary attracts extraordinary.

SO beautifully put. <3333