DPP: Surprising Thursday

[lizziec]

Yesterday's post brought out some really excellent fic recommendations, and hopefully some of those have changed minds about certain kinds of fic. Please do keep checking it and see if you have any fics to add, or if you've been recommended some and it's changed your mind then maybe add a comment to let us know :)

Today we're going to think about traits that surprise us about Pilots. What made you raise your eyebrows when you first saw it on screen, or you thought of as a trait that you would never have guessed at? What was it about that trait that surprised you? Did the way the show portrayed it convince you that it was actually a trait that was in character, or do you think of it as an OOC moment?

Here're mine:

Kara's religious nature is revealed fairly early on in the miniseries, but I was actually quite surprised by it. I never expected Starbuck who drank and smoked and fought and wound people up would be religious like that. I was even more surprised that she let that side of her overcome her military training and caused her to mutiny on back to Caprica.

With Lee, I was really surprised in A Measure of Salvation that it was him, who I had always seen as rather moral, who would suggest the plan to cause the genocide of the Cylons through pulling the plug on the sick prisoners within range of a resurrection ship.

What're yours? :)


Lee is obviously surprised that Kara a) has a dress and b) knows how to wear it

Comments

[winegums.livejournal.com]

About pilots together....again, this comes right from the miniseries, but their reunion in the hangar deck. Tropes usually mean that one shouldn't be surprised about two attractive young leads having a moment, but what actually surprised me there was the implication that things had been like that - that the attraction had existed - even before Zak's death (obvious, if they hadn't seen each other for two years). I was totally expecting their feelings to develop over the course of the show, not for them to be, well, ALREADY there.

And you can also count me in as one of those people surprised by the fact that Kara was religious...she's so far from the image one expects to have of someone with such deeply held faith, that it IS a bit of a shock. That, and the fact that she only met PapAdama after Zak's death - somehow before AoC I'd thought they'd met or bonded a fair bit before the Viper crash. Oh, and the fact that she painted - that was a huge surprise.

Lee's big surprise, for me, was the inward collapse we saw in the One Year Later part of LDYB - my first thought, on seeing it, was that something absolutely terrible had to have happened to do that to him, and when we found out what did....ouch.

[(Anonymous)]

I was totally expecting their feelings to develop over the course of the show, not for them to be, well, ALREADY there.

Exactly my favorite thing about the pilots: all the UST, friendship, love, mutual trust, respect, angst and guilt were obviously already there right from the start, thus before Zak's death. There is really not much development in their relationship and it makes the inventing of their backstory so much fun.

[lizziec]

what actually surprised me there was the implication that things had been like that - that the attraction had existed - even before Zak's death (obvious, if they hadn't seen each other for two years)

Yeah, that was rather a surprising moment, though I think there was a hint of it in the brig scene (though largely that only showed that they were friends). There was definitely something awkward there in the reunion scene that hinted at more, and one of the only things I liked about the Daybreak flashbacks was that showed that awkward handshake that mirrored the awkward handshake in the mini. Yes, I know that the handshake was a constant thing through the series but to me it made sense that the Daybreak flashback should be where it started - the reason that with pilots a handshake meant so much.

Oh, and the fact that she painted - that was a huge surprise.

Oh yes, there was absolutely no hint of it before Valley of Darkness IIRC and ISTR that even Helo was surprised - and it's established in Canon that they have known each other fairly well for a fairly long time. If it surprises Helo I'm not sure how the rest of us were supposed to have any idea :)

Lee's big surprise, for me, was the inward collapse we saw in the One Year Later part of LDYB

Yeah, it was fairly dramatic, and because of the leap in time, entirely unhinted at. My problem with how it was done was that it seemed almost as if it was being done for a bit of a laugh (my husband certainly found it kind of funny that he was fat!Lee), and it felt like once they'd made him like that they weren't really willing to explore his internal collapse in much more detail.

I think a lot of the explanation is what we extrapolate based on UB and a couple of moments in the first four episodes at the start if s3. That kind of surprised me too - but then the lack of proper support for people who had been prisoners on NC also surprised me, so I'm wondering if the writers were just really poor at following through with things that they set up.

[(Anonymous)]

Good topic. I guess Lee not wanting to attempt to rescue people of New Caprica surprised me a lot.

[lizziec]

That caused me to raise my eyebrows as well. The only way I can explain it in my own head is that there was something very wrong with Lee in general at that point...

Additionally, I suppose he had some form for that sort of thing before in the first days of the Cylon attacks when he was the one who advocated leaving behind the non-ftl ships. But it was still rather a surprise when he didn't want to even attempt the rescue of the NC citizens.

[(Anonymous)]

Up to day I am having very hard time to believe that Kara was really thinking about Sam when she finally got back on the table with Lee in Scar.

[lizziec]

I'm not really sure what Kara was thinking of in Scar. She was clearly a mess, but I'm not sure it can be directly linked to Sam, or Scar, or anything particularly as much as it is everything since the end of the worlds catching up with her. So I'm with you in that I'm not sure Kara was necessarily thinking about Sam on the table, but I'm also not sure that she was thinking about Lee. I'm wondering if all she was actually thinking about was trying not to think.

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

I can understand her being hung up on him with guilt, but not in the sort of lovesick way it's implied, I guess? I think I always assumed that Sam was connected to Zak in her mind and that she felt like she had to be emotionally loyal to the poor guy who could be dying back on Caprica, and of course she was for from indifferent to the idea that she may not be able to get back to help him, so there were a lot of emotions that got all tangled up that I think she chose to interpret as being in love with him even though she didn't know him very well.

I wouldn't deny she felt a lot for Sam, but it's hard to believe she was even in love with him until at least some time after they were married. Heh.

[(Anonymous)]

One more: Kara telling Saul Tigh about sleeping with Lee. Didn't see that one coming.

[lizziec]

Yeah, I was left wondering what had happened in the intervening time to cause her to share that with him. I can understand them being brought together by their bitterness and experiences of captivity in Torn, but I was really surprised that they were closer even before those experiences through the UB flashbacks. What it did demonstrate to me quite neatly though is how lacking Kara was in friends who weren't Lee and/or Sam at this point that made Tigh the closest person she could speak to.

ETA: I would love to have seen her talking to Helo about it though, or even Athena (who she'd been seen to be friendly with in Scar). Surely one of those would be more appropriate than Tigh?

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

Kara's artistic side surprised me. Her painting and knowledge of poetry. But I absolutely LOVED the twist. I don't know why I was surprised though, it actually fits her perfectly.

Lee, I guess his foray into Law & Politics was surprising to me because like Kara said in the Daybreak flashbacks, she knows soldiers and he's a soldier. I didn't necessarily dislike him delving into law/politics, but it was a surprising trait that he didn't actually see himself as just a soldier but also wanted to make a difference through diplomacy rather than just blindly following other people's orders and decisions.

[lizziec]

Kara's artistic side surprised me. Her painting and knowledge of poetry. But I absolutely LOVED the twist. I don't know why I was surprised though, it actually fits her perfectly.

Agreed - I loved the way embolalia described it in this comment further up:

"The problem for me wasn't that it was so out of character (it was a sort of violent self-expression, from what we saw, and fit her in a certain way) as that it had NEVER BEEN SUGGESTED BEFORE. Which made it feel more like a retcon than character development."

wanted to make a difference through diplomacy rather than just blindly following other people's orders and decisions.

See, I wasn't terribly surprised by his leaving the fleet. I saw it as him being ready to break away from the expectations that his father set for him. They had a difficult relationship all the way through IMO, but I think something in Lee always wanted to impress his father - hence the fleet (and he was good at being in the fleet). When he left it was because he recognised that he didn't need his father's approval for something that didn't feel like it fit him any more.

That's my thoughts anyway.

[(Anonymous)]

Not sure if completely surprising but rather hard to understand is Kara's strong affinity towards Leoben that we can see throughout the show.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Good call. That may in fact be my top most choice for what surprised me. That Kara suddenly got all shmoopy for a cylon and put her hand on that glass.

Also: her wanting to muster out/settle on Nu Cap and build a house.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I'm just popping in to say how much I love that set of pictures above. Kara's eye roll and Lee's surprised little boy on Christmas morning face. <3 <3 <3

[adamas.livejournal.com]

Icon love :)

[lizziec]

I'm just popping in to say how much I love that set of pictures above.

Yay! One of the reasons I like doing DPP is coming up with appropriate-ish pictures to go with each post and I really love this moment between them. Wish we could have had more like it :)

Kara's eye roll and Lee's surprised little boy on Christmas morning face.

*grin* Kara expression is a bit "told you so" while also being rather flirty I think. And I bet Lee never had a Christmas present to rival that ;)

[adamas.livejournal.com]

I was really really surprised by Kara settling on NC. Even Lee was surprised by that! It was IC for her to think all the fun bits of flying were over now that the war was, but I'd almost see her being more like Lee at series end, with the exploring and what's next and the excitement; not a cabin on a rock, you know?

For Lee was surprised me most was his deciding to not cheat with Kara (which sounds strange, I know). Lee is such an incredibly moral, black and white, down right righteous character in every way: except when it comes to Kara. When it comes to Kara he's never been able to do anything but break the rules. His rules, hers, their ranks, their missions. She's his exception, and I was surprised to finally find a rule he wouldn't break for her (wedding vows).

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I agree about the not cheating. It made his line in the brig "I never was any good at saying no to anything/except me/especially you" kind of a lie. He resisted her when it really mattered. :(

[winegums.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, that too (the settling on NuCap). And as for the affair, I'm never sure about whether Lee meant he wouldn't cheat any more, because let's face it, stripping your best friend/the love of your life out of her flight suit and making out with her in a Raptor (with the implication that this is far from teh first time you've done it) pretty much IS breaking your wedding vows, straight up.

Come to think of that, I was pretty surprised when Kara refused to get a divorce and decided that they were only going to "bend the rules" :(

[lizziec]

with the exploring and what's next and the excitement;

Explorer!Kara could be interesting, but given that she lives to fly (Lee says more or less as much in Maelstrom) I don't really understand why she would want to give it up just because it becomes routine.

[embolalia.livejournal.com]

The first time I remember Lee feeling out of character was in Colonial Day when he was so violently anti-Zarek after being totally best friends with him in Bastille Day. I mean, I get that the ending of that lowered his opinion of Zarek, but Lee didn't seem to come away feeling murderous rage and willingness to beat people up for listening to the guy.

[lizziec]

The first time I remember Lee feeling out of character was in Colonial Day when he was so violently anti-Zarek after being totally best friends with him in Bastille Day.

Okay, so I agree that Lee's attitude to Zarek in Colonial Day is quite different to that in Bastille Day, but I think it's a bit strong to describe them as "best friends" in BD.

In BD Lee is willing to talk with Zarek, and agrees that there need to be elections, but I'm not convinced they're exactly friends - more that Lee recognises the merits of some of the things Zarek is arguing because he already believes in some of those things, like democracy. That at least is entirely consistent with the Lee we see throughout the series IMO.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

Oh! Also, when we found out when she and Sam were talking on the Demitrius that she'd told him a lot of the story about her mother AND her captivity with Leoben. That surprised the heck outta me. Put their relationship in an entirely different light in my eyes and I saw them differently from then on.

[lizziec]

It's an interesting admission and certainly hints at a deeper relationship between Kara and Sam than we had seen, but I still really struggle with that relationship meaning more than being frak-buddies and friends. I don't really seem them as romantic at all. But that could just be my shippy heart talking :)

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

One of my early surprises with Kara and Lee was during the Olympic Carrier incident in "33." It surprised me that Kara was the one who strongly voiced moral objections to firing on civilians and was ready to refuse the order (I was expecting that more from Lee). And then Lee was the one to decide to do it and he went through with it, which kind of surprised me. And then I was surprised again when Kara fired in solidarity with him, even though she was still against what they were doing.

That was the moment when I thought -- this relationship is going to be complex and really interesting.

[lizziec]

It surprised me that Kara was the one who strongly voiced moral objections to firing on civilians and was ready to refuse the order... And then I was surprised again when Kara fired in solidarity with him, even though she was still against what they were doing.

I basically agree with everything you have here, and actually that was something that struck me when I was watching "33" for the second time, having seen the entire series once because Lee as a moral force was for me very strongly established by this point, and then it's Lee who suggests what needs to be done. No wonder he has flashbacks.

I loved that Kara fired in solidarity. I wonder if she would have done if any other pilot had been in charge at that point?

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

sort of late here but that's it.

my surprise actually is not only pilots related is related to the whole Quad.
we know that Kara and Lee knew each other for a while before the mini and they seem pretty friendly there and then we see Lee and Sam sort of bonding after... you know. but we sort of not see anything really in between.
the only moment that we really see them interact is in EoJ and then is work related. the fact that those discussions got out of hand is another story but where is the rest?
we don't see it. Kara at least making fun of Dee like she did with Lee when she presented Sam? Lee and Sam bumping into each other by accident on a random hallway? Sam and Dee speaking (like except that scene during the dance)?

ok, i'll stop here because idk if i make any kind of sense.

[lizziec]

sort of late here but that's it.

That's ok - nice to have you along whatever time you turn up :)

where is the rest? we don't see it.

This is a really good point. I always think of the Quad as going on for a long time, but I think it's suggested for a long time with them actually showing very little of the repercussions for everyone involved. Seeing more of what happened during it between all four players could have been a very interesting way to go I think.