DPP: Starbuck and Apollo

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Next up…





 
Starbuck vs. Kara
 
 
 
Apollo vs. Lee
 
 
 
This is a fic trope that pops up more occasionally.  Usually in reference to the duality between Kara and Starbuck, her alter-ego or mask. 
 
Personally, I think that the mask vs. the protected person inside is more true for Kara because Starbuck is a more outrageous personality.  Lee and Apollo seem more integrated for him.  Although I’ve always thought that his relationship with Dee was based on her fascination with Apollo and not the very real and more damaged person underneath.

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Your fourth picture, for "Lee", is not coming up, FYI.

But when I think of Apollo v. Lee, I think of him in the towel scene. That's totally Apollo right there talking to D'Anna Biers. Likewise, in the scene where he faces off with the Pegasus CAG Ripper all "That's my father's name and it's easy to remember because it's my name too." Or whatever. Heh.

Lee and Kara are both so much less confident than Apollo and Starbuck. I think they pull their callsigns on when they need to get alpha and/or throw around some authority.

At the same time, it makes for an easy shorthand in fic and sometimes it strikes me as weird. A long time ago I read someone's post complaining that Kara and Starbuck were used (in a fic I think) as if she was two different people and that always stuck with me.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

in the scene where he faces off with the Pegasus CAG Ripper all "That's my father's name and it's easy to remember because it's my name too."

oh, I totally forgot about that scene. YES, that's totally Apollo.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

There wasn't a fouth picture. (Although I have fixed it, now. thanks.)

The towel scene is a really good example of Lee being Apollo though.

it makes for an easy shorthand in fic and sometimes it strikes me as weird. A long time ago I read someone's post complaining that Kara and Starbuck were used (in a fic I think) as if she was two different people and that always stuck with me.

Actually this is the sort of thought that got me thinking about this particular duality. I think used well, Starbuck and Apollo are really great metaphors for the strong more direct part of the Kara and Lee, but I have also read fics where it felt like the easy way out of telling a more intersting story.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

Although I’ve always thought that his relationship with Dee was based on her fascination with Apollo and not the very real and more damaged person underneath.

totally there with you. I always thought that she loved Apollo very-very much but sometimes didn't like Lee, or at least some parts of him. For me the moment that she leaves him is an indicator of that and not of other things that she is sometimes accused of.

Starbuck is a more outrageous personality

yes, it is. and for us is even more so because unlike the people from the BSG universe we are still consumed by the whole girl/boy differences.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

Agreed about Dee's fascination with his "Apollo" side. Even just before her suicide, she's blowing smoke up his ass about how proud of him she is for being the leader and reveling in his glorious Apollodom. And that's the LAST FEELING SHE WANTS TO HOLD ONTO BEFORE ENDING HER LIFE, not his love of her, but her fangirl squee over him.

And I think that is why their relationship rubs me wrong. Not because I dislike her, but because I never felt like it was based the right things. But more so on her hero worship and his deep desire to be loved allowing him to accept her awe and adoration in lieu of that most basis love of who he truly was at heart. She just couldn't love him for his flaws the way Kara could.

But maybe that is why the Quad of Doom was what it was. Apollo got Dee. Starbuck got Sam. Kara and Lee had each other. Or not . . .

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

But maybe that is why the Quad of Doom was what it was. Apollo got Dee. Starbuck got Sam. Kara and Lee had each other. Or not . . .

never thought of it like this, but yes.

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

Apollo got Dee. Starbuck got Sam. Kara and Lee had each other. Or not...

Thirded--that just clicked in my brain and it really, really makes sense.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

But maybe that is why the Quad of Doom was what it was. Apollo got Dee. Starbuck got Sam. Kara and Lee had each other. Or not . . .

Or not... :(

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

And I've always thought that if they had played up the fact that Dee was in love with Apollo but hardly knew what to do with the real man underneath, why she stayed and why she left when she did would have made so much more sense.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

It's the only explanation that makes sense. Her actions are not very coherent otherwise.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

I always thought that it was apparent, especially when she's giving him pep talks - she nearly always, if not actually always, refers to him as Apollo instead of using his given name. We don't need to be hit over the head with the signs, because they're there for anyone to see if they're paying attention. (unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people.....don't.)

She's very, very taken with that persona - who wouldn't be? - but it didn't always make for a very good understanding of the man and not the CAG.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

I think that a case could be made that all people create a more confident outward persona for themselves that might not accurately reflect the way they truly feel. All the MOST outwardly confident people I know are actually the MOST inwardly self conscious and scared.

For Kara, it's not that I think she's 2 people, but that she's soooo frakking affected by the horrors of the world that the only way for her to survive in it is to put up deflectors or the pain would overwhelm her. To her, I do actually see it as a legitimate survival mechanism. Yes, her mother certainly did her part to ingrain this bad ass persona that Kara took up both as a reactionary 'frak you' to Socrata and simultaneously as a kind of acceptance of her belief in her special destiny. But mostly, I see Kara's "Starbuck" as a buffer to the world. Something she needs to get through each day.

Lee, on the other hand, feels different to me. His "Apollo" bluster and ego come across to me more in the vein of the whole 'mask' concept. Playing his part based on the expectations that surround him. I don't know how that's different exactly, but it just feels different. Idk, I'd be interested in other people's take on Lee. He confounds me at times.

OK, that's all the stumbly non-sense I can make right now.

[requialexa.livejournal.com]

I think the difference for Lee and his callsign is...I just get the feeling that he's perpetually surprised by his prowess and his popularity, so when needed, like Kara, he pulls that confident, gorgeous Apollo around him so that ppl will take him seriously like they always, inexplicably, do. I get the feeling he was sort of blindsided by how attractive people find him, and by the doors that opens for him; likewise, he flies and deduces so effortlessly that he doesn't truly get that he's got talents others don't posses.
In a way, I guess both projections are, of course! based on others expectations of Lee and Kara...but darnit I cannot articulate the subtle differences I see.... no coffee yet!

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

Yup. What you said. That makes total sense. He's so GOOD at everything and the whole time he's all adorably surprised and confused by that. Like, he pulls the Apollo card because he can and because it works but the whole time he's thinking, "why are all these people doing what I say?"

Similar to the question at LAD today. Why did he stay in the military? Cuz he turned out to be so damned GOOD at it! So he probably thought, 'well, I guess I should just keep doing this then.' But oh Leland, you'd be good at anything you tried!

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Starbuck is more the name of a persona that Kara created as a child to protect her from her mother and to show the world that she couldn't be defeated. While Apollo feels more like a creation by others that Lee uses.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

Stop saying things better in one sentence than I can in 12! ;)

[indigo419.livejournal.com]

Where are the buttons for "love" and "agree x eleventy billion"? ;)

Callsigns and fic.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I always end up thinking about Kara/Lee as all the stuff that's underneath and not readily apparent from a casual viewing. The callsigns are the myth and the legend. K/L are the humans behind it all. And I've used it in fic before, especially I was trying to show a progression from where they didn't know each other very well (Satrbuck/Apollo) to the point where they felt much more familiar and comfortable around each other (Kara/Lee).

But I think the mileage may be limited on that angle b/c you're making an assumption that these folks are self aware enough to realize the difference between the label and the person. And I'm not always so sure. But in terms of how someone else might view them-- I think it makes a lot of sense.

And it's weird, b/c I almost always think of them as K/L instead of the callsigns. I just feel more comfortable relating to them in my head that way. (Geez, that sounded weird. But we all know my brain is a very addled place. ; P)

Great topic, K!

Re: Callsigns and fic.

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

I've read some fic where Kara will use Lee's callsign when talking to him as a deliberate way of throwing distance between them, especially when she feels emotionally cornered and wants to lash out. That makes sense to me--that Starbuck and Apollo are the pilot personas and that Kara and Lee are the humans underneath, and that their working relationship is, in some ways, drastically different from their interpersonal relationship. Whether or not they'd really consciously acknowledge that, though, is not a sure thing.

Re: Callsigns and fic.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

But I think the mileage may be limited on that angle b/c you're making an assumption that these folks are self aware enough to realize the difference between the label and the person. And I'm not always so sure. But in terms of how someone else might view them-- I think it makes a lot of sense.

I think there's a lot of truth to this because I'm not always sure how self aware anyone is between their label and their person, unless it's a negative thing.

And it's weird, b/c I almost always think of them as K/L instead of the callsigns. I just feel more comfortable relating to them in my head that way. (Geez, that sounded weird. But we all know my brain is a very addled place. ; P)

I actually have a really hard time using Starbuck or Apollo when I'm writing because I'm much more comfortable with Kara and Lee. :)

Re: Callsigns and fic.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

YES. YES. SO MUCH YES TO ALL OF THIS.

And I think of them as K/L too, head-relating to them by their given names does not sound weird at all.

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

While we see Lee addressing Kara or talking about her as "Starbuck" all the time, especially when other pilots are around, Kara practically never uses Lee's callsign, when talking to him face to face or talking about him with other people. I think the only exception is when she says "Apollo, you magnificent bastard" in S1.

Lee/Apollo and Kara/Starbuck are in my opinion too intertwined to be considered separate personalities. It's funny that although Apollo/Starbuck and Kara/Lee tend to get along fairly well, the pilots clash much more often when one of them has the mask up, while the other one is feeling a bit more vulnerable (Starbuck/Lee or Kara/Apollo).

[winegums.livejournal.com]

And yet, they sometimes have moments when they shift out of being Kara and Lee to being Starbuck/Apollo again, and when that shift happens they are unstoppable.

Like in EoJ, when they're planning out ambush strategy in front of their spouses - it could be so awkward (and is) but they never waver.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

It's funny that although Apollo/Starbuck and Kara/Lee tend to get along fairly well, the pilots clash much more often when one of them has the mask up, while the other one is feeling a bit more vulnerable (Starbuck/Lee or Kara/Apollo).

That is an excellent point! Makes a ton of sense.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

That's interesting about Kara/Apollo and Starbuck/Lee. It's like they're out of balance, which is never good for them.