DPP: Oh, No, They Didn't (ONTD)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Well, shippers, this is my last DPP for this week. Thank you all for so much squeeing, thinking, and commenting with me. Driving this train is fantastic. *MWUH*

Now, onto the business at hand. Most of the week has been devoted to squeeable topics like UST, eyefrakking, outmaking, and birthday celebrations. Today, I'm bringing a little more angst to the mix.

There were countless opportunities for Kara and Lee to finally talk about their feelings and to straighten their shit out. Seems, though, every time they tried, something got in the way: Fate, Timing, Frakked up Missions to Caprica, Personal History, Guilt, Death, you know, the small stuff.

So my questions boils down to this: What are the most significant (or just your favorite) moments in the show where TPTB prevent our pilots from achieving their happily ever after? I don't mean RDM's late-series character annihilation, but instead the legitimate, even clever ways that the show kept us watching our pilots, just to see if they'd ever figure things out.

What were the moments that made you want to throw something at the TV (but also gave you that "oooh, this oughtta be good" smile)?

And let's keep it nice, shippers. This is intended to be both squeeable and angsty (if that's possible). Here is one of my favorites (in stills - my gif of this scene is broken):


Jealous!Lee...
  
  

Later....
  
 
 

AND THEN KARA GOES TO CAPRICA. HOLY FRAKKING LORDS OF KOBOL. Laura and her frakking prophecies, Lee and his too-angry-to-admit he's jealous. And "Gaius Frakking Baltar???" AAAAGGGGHHHH. Pilots, why do you do this to me???

What say you, shippers?

Comments

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

**points to what ninjamonkey said**

It's not about the present so much as what went down in the past. It all boils down to how they felt about each other when Zak was still around. Feeling attracted, wanting to act on it-- and then.... Zak's gone. And you're left with all the what if's and never could's. It's enough to make you crazy.

The writers didn't do nearly a good enough of job exploring this over the length of the series, but they did two things that set up the conundrum beautifully-- (1) the insanely charged and angsty first meeting in the brig (it was ALL about what they weren't saying), and (ii) the folded picture. GAH, it's just genius. Why the hell would Kara take the trouble to FOLD AWAY the part of her finace's brother so she didn't have to look at him? You don't fold random pictures of random people. That's something you do with exes, with bad breakups, with people you still have feelings for but don't want to deal with.

The folded picture. Says it all really. : )

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Why the hell would Kara take the trouble to FOLD AWAY the part of her finace's brother so she didn't have to look at him? You don't fold random pictures of random people. That's something you do with exes, with bad breakups, with people you still have feelings for but don't want to deal with.

I guess the folded picture would say it all for me if I thought that RDM had always planned for them to have some kind of secret history. Was that something he said sometime? In a podcast or outtake? I just have a hard time giving the table!frak so much credence that it rewrites the K/L relationship for the entire series.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

For me, that folded picture is part of the reason that the table scene makes NO SENSE! Part of it. There were hints and suggestions throughout Season 1 that made it seem like Kara and Lee had rather a lot of history together. The existence of the picture (how the hell did that get taken if they never saw each other again between the dinner and the funeral, btw? Or did he supposedly see them "that weekend" and not again until the funeral? I can't recall), the comment about Kara not being able to keep her hands of "a certain Major", the tension and banter between them in the mini - "Did they kiss your ass to your satisfaction?" "This seems familiar." "Same old Lee.", etc. These two people knew each other, and knew each other well. Sure, you can get a sense of someone from a couple of meetings, but a lot of this was details that wouldn't come up in casual conversation, and neither of them were given to gossip.

Erm. That was rambly.

Anyways, I'm not sure that RDM every said anything specific about Lee/Kara's history before the finale, when he was trying to make his Art. At which point he said there was not a secret history. Maybe my issue is that I need to stop looking for information and puzzle pieces earlier in the show, because maybe that was never how the story was meant to be told. I just can't bring myself to believe that two full seasons of great, cohesive story telling (plus half of another one) were an accident.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Maybe my issue is that I need to stop looking for information and puzzle pieces earlier in the show, because maybe that was never how the story was meant to be told.

Yeah, I can't go back and rewrite the whole thing to link everything to the table!frak - makes me crazy. There is such confusion and inconsistency, I'm not sure it's worth it. I think exploring it all in fic is so-o-o much more interesting than trying to figure out what the hell RDM was smokin'. :)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

how the hell did that get taken if they never saw each other again between the dinner and the funeral, btw?

I do believe they saw each other after the dinner, actually. My take is that after the mess that was the table thing, they both made a silent pact and never brought out the issue again, like it never happened. And afterwards they became friends. Of course, their attraction always was there, but I can picture both pushing it out of their conscious minds and burying it.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

See, and I'm one of those folks that completely (or to the extent I can) blocks out the table flashbacks because they are SO abrupt and out of character. But even without them, the theory still works for me. Just the way they play the relationship in the mini, the hesitatncy-- I mean, Lee comes back from the dead and Kara is bursting with joy but she will only allow herself to shake his hand??? Seriously???-- the forced restraint there always strongly implied to me that there was much more to their relationship. That there were feelings and baggage and longing and guilt and deep, deep pain. Else, why would you be so guarded against another person?

Tablefrack, schmablefrak. There was way more going on there than a brief drunken encounter. RDM just wrote his term paper the night before it was due.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Well, while the Cylons allegedly had a plan the whole time, I'm pretty sure RDM didn't. I thought that the Lee/Kara/Zak backstory was intentional (at least as far as there were feelings from when Zak was alive), but I can't remember where I got that.

The picture implies a lot. She didn't cut the Lee part off, which is reasonable if you just want the part with you and your fiance in it. But she also couldn't just deal with him being in the picture as collateral scenery, so she tucked him under- there, but out of sight.

(I love the DPPs, even if I keep getting the hairy eyeball from Mr. Monkey when I start furiously typing on my phone. Qwerty keyboard FTW!)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

You know, maybe the Kara/Lee/Zak issue is one of the things that fascinates me the most about k/l... All the guilt and the wrongness attached to the fact that they betrayed Zak when he was still alive (and not necessarily in a physical way). How you are supposed to get over that? It's a shame that the writers never deal with it in a proper way --and threw us those flashbacks that were a big WTF (even though I don't completely dislike them).

And the folded pic? Totally agree. Why on Earth you keep hiden the face of your dead fiancé's brother? Gah.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Yeah I remember being almost surprised when Kara said "Is it because of Zak" in Unfinished Business extended. Because they hadn't brought him up since YCGHA!!!

(This is an excellent topic, I'm sorry I'm so late to the party!)

[somewhereapart.livejournal.com]

Kind of makes you wonder if Zak isn't more an issue for Kara when it comes to her and Lee than we often give him credit for. I mean, we all talk a lot about Kara's issues, about not wanting to commit, about not thinking she's worthy or that she won't be able to live up to Lee's expectations of her. But I think it's probably very telling that when Lee says he wasn't able to admit how he felt until then and her first thought is "because of Zak" -- people often try to understand other people's motives in light of their own. We often think someone does something for the reason we would do it, because that's most familiar and reasonable to us.

The Kara we see in the flashbacks with Zak doesn't seem to have the extent of baggage that she does once we meet her in the mini and beyond. Granted, we don't see very much of her, but she seems to be very comfortable with Zak - and hell, she's comfortable with Sam, too. But it's Lee she has a hard time with, and I wonder if maybe a lot of that has to do with what happened between them and how they felt about each other when Zak was around. And wasn't the table!frak Kara's suggestion? I mean, you grow up with a shitty family, a shitty home life, you get away and you meet this great guy who loves you and wants to be with you and wants you to meet his family and be a part of his life, and you... proposition his brother and almost cheat on Zak while he's still in the room. Bam. All those things your momma said about you being a cancer, about how bad you were may be true after all. And it's wrapped up in this moment with Lee. And we all know the attraction doesn't go away, and I think it's pretty safe to say they saw quite a bit of each other after that night, so those feelings (however denied and pushed down they may have been) were there again and again. I mean, just imagine the war of emotion that must have happened whenever Lee was coming to visit -- excitement to see him again, guilt over how much you WANT to see him again, guilt over the fact that you have a secret with Lee that Zak is not privy to, that would hurt Zak.

And then Zak dies, like punishment for her sins -- can't appreciate what you have, can't treat it the way you should and honor it the way you should, and the gods will take it from you. So how *do* you move on and commit yourself to Lee? No matter how much you want him, no matter how much you love him, you can't be an "us" with him. You betrayed the most important person in both your lives together, and he may be gone, but the memory of him certainly isn't gone for either of you. As much as I hate to say they're "stuck on that table," I think they may be stuck in their betrayal of Zak. Not just the table, but the instant attraction, the connection that they had over conversation that night, the attraction that surely continued whenever they saw each other. And I guess by "they" I maybe mean Kara more than Lee, because Lee seems willing to go there several times in the series, and Kara pulls back.

Annnnnd that was a bit of a ramble, but it's my extemporaneous thoughts on the Zak-guilt issue.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Makes sense to me, bb. Kara's greatest strength is her loyalty to her people. I could never ever buy into that table frak flashback precisely because she propositions Lee like it's no big deal. I've read plenty of fic that I've loved where they are guilty and tortured and fall into bed (not the FIRST NIGHT THEY MEET granted) because they can't help themselves after they grow close as friends, but the idea that she basically dares him to fuck her on the table with Zak right there? No fucking way. It just doesn't ring true, nor does it ring true for Lee to go along with it just because they're both drunk.

I think though that if we were supposed to get the idea that they were stuck on their betrayal of Zak...well it would have made a hell of a lot more sense if we actually saw them being stuck on the Zak issue! After YCGHA he's never mentioned again until UB. So I never really thought that was the issue so much as their fear of how much they feel for each other. How big and all-consuming and different from other relationships it is. But I can see that being Kara's motive a bit more than Lee's with her added self-esteem issues that she's a cancer who fraks everything up. (Heh your comment made me want to go read Leda13's Fearful Symmetry again. So perfect that characterization of Kara.)

(And I think that was your longest comment ever!)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with both of you. I don’t like the near table!frak because it was too abrupt and contrived, almost pushing the boundaries of OOC, but I really like the notion of pilots betraying Zak (more in a non-physical way) while he is still alive, and that becoming the source of the inherent wrongness in their relationship and their inability to accept their feelings (can’t help myself, cheating/almost!cheating with your true love is a kink of mine!). And as twisted as it is, I also like the concept of true love (aka Lee) as both a blessing and a curse for Kara –she meets her soulmate and is aware of it right from the start, but that person becomes the confirmation of her mother’s curse at the same time. I can definitely see this as a part of Kara’s motivations to not allow herself to commit to Lee (the other big issue is the depth of her feelings for him and how much they scare the hell out of her, of course).

The problem with the whole table issue is that they almost frak the first night they met and frankly, that’s a little bit too much to buy, especially because the show barely mentions the Zak issue and its consequences, not until the very end, and that’s the reason why it doesn’t ring true at all and looks like a cheap retcon.

That being said, UBEX always made me think about Zak. First, Lee’s applecart line –how are we supposed to read it?-- and then that conversation between Sharon and Kara, when Kara tells Sharon that Lee is doing it all over again –that is, thinking (and acting) like she was his--, and Sharon says: “like when you were with Zak?” and Kara answers “Yes, and now I am with Sam”. Or something like that (I don’t remember well and I don’t have the transcripts here). I didn’t know what to make of that conversation, but I always found it intriguing.

Anyway, this is s fascinating topic indeed, I am planning to devote a DPP to Zak and pilots backstory if nobody brings out the issue before :D

[somewhereapart.livejournal.com]

I think the only think the table!frak itself accomplishes is showing how incredibly strong the attraction was for both of them right from the start, and putting them both in a position of being very aware of that attraction and how dangerous it is to their respective relationships with Zak. Neither one of them was ever stuck in the "I'm attracted to my brother's/fiance's fiancee/brother, I wonder if he feels the same" situation. They both knew, from the night they met, and they both knew how close they came to actually doing something about it.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Yeah, totally agree. I think that’s why I don’t hate the flashbacks as much as other fellow shippers do… I mean, for me they are the proof that they were true soulmates, that they shared something really deep and meaningful right from the start and they both knew it. And the fact that those feelings never faded and they kept on trying over and over despite everything shows me that even though their immediate connection came out in a pretty ugly way, what they had was something substantial and real, not just lust and infatuation.

In a weird way, those flashbacks actually showed how much they deserved to be happy in the end, as they had grown so much as people over the years and eventually reached a place where they could accept what was between them. The real tragedy was that Kara made poof (and that, that is what really pisses me off about their ending).

[somewhereapart.livejournal.com]

Ugh, the Poof kills me, if only because they had FINALLY worked out their issues, it seemed. They FINALLY had time to be together without frat regs, or the constant threat of being blown out of the sky, or duty to the fleet. They EARNED that. They earned being together, and they got totally screwed out of it.

[somewhereapart.livejournal.com]

I think you may be right about it being my longest comment ever. lol I blame the Advil PM for lulling my brain into a bit of a ramble.

As for it being out of character for Kara to proposition him with Zak right there, while I don't disagree, I think that part of the point of that was to show how much everything else falls away for the two of them when they're together. I really think that until the glass broke and he woke up, both Lee and Kara had completely forgotten Zak was in the room, hell they may have been so caught up in the booze and each other that they forgot he existed in the first place. They really only have eyes for each other, those two.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

That part of it is appealing, I think it's just the crude and inelegant way they set it up. Like a dare. Not romantic, nothing about their actual feelings, just like she was daring him to play pyramid with her or something. I put it down to Ron going back to his show bible and trying to portray the Apollo/Starbuck relationship as this match between hot-blooded viper jocks (and on Kara's side--he's always had this thing about making her be promiscuous), which doesn't account for everything else they are (and esp. everything Lee is/isn't). His comments about wanting someone more jock-ish for the Apollo role in the Daybreak commentary have colored my perception maybe. But I think he wasn't really thinking about his characters and they way they had come to life so much as the initial idea of them that he had...and not taking into account that the actors portrayed it differently maybe.

[somewhereapart.livejournal.com]

Yes, see, having an initial idea of what you want for your characters is all well and good, but you can't just go back 4 seasons later and give them a motivation for their behavior that the actors haven't been factoring in as they've played the parts. That just really never works. It seems forced, and off.

And yes, just propositioning him like that may be a bit out of character. But it's also maybe a safety net kind of proposition -- if he says no, you can always say you were joking, of COURSE you were joking, WHO would dare their fiance's brother to frak and actually MEAN it. And if he goes for it, you get what you want, and maintain the illusion of it all being casual.

(And this is me, trying to justify canon and find ways to make it woooorrrrkkk. lol)